F4F operation Torch question (1 Viewer)

[Martin06]

Hello, I would like to build some planes from operation torch and I came across this picture, it is saying that it is F4F-3 but I have found no more information about this plane.
In this forum I also found that all the wildcats in operation Torch were F4F-4s, so i don't know if this plane is F4F-3 or F4F-4 with two machine guns taken out.
I would really appreciate your help.

 

[Denniss]

F4F-4

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/dam/nhhc/research/histories/naval-aviation/Location%20of%20US%20Naval%20Aircraft/5-11-42.pdf

 

[Wurger]

Hello, I would like to build some planes from operation torch and I came across this picture, it is saying that it is F4F-3 but I have found no more information about this plane.
In this forum I also found that all the wildcats in operation Torch were F4F-4s, so i don't know if this plane is F4F-3 or F4F-4 with two machine guns taken out.
I would really appreciate your help.

View attachment 728048

It is a fitted with drop tanks F4F-4 of VF-41 taking off from USS RANGER (CV-4) on a photo-recon mission over French North Africa, during the operation, November 1942.

the info source: 80-G-30311 Grumman F4F-4

 

[special ed]

F4F-4

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/dam/nhhc/research/histories/naval-aviation/Location%20of%20US%20Naval%20Aircraft/5-11-42.pdf

A very interesting list. American Samoa had SBC-4s on active duty NOV 42. And a VJ. Have to look it up.

 

[Denniss]

VMSB-151 phased the last SBC-4 out in June 43, they transitioned to SBD-4 starting in 12/42

More listings:

Location of U.S. Naval Aircraft, World War II

Click on the day, month and year (e.g., 2 Feb 1942) to view the Location of U.S. Naval Aircraft report for that particular timeframe. NOTE: All of these records are unclassified or have been declassified. Due to the age of the records, type of typewriter font, and capability of current OCR...

www.history.navy.mil

 

[Martin06]

It is a fitted with drop tanks F4F-4 of VF-41 taking off from USS RANGER (CV-4) on a photo-recon mission over French North Africa, during the operation, November 1942.

the info source: 80-G-30311 Grumman F4F-4

but if it is F4F-4 why does it have only 4 machine guns, F4F-4 has 6 machine guns

 

[Wurger]

IMHO the two outher ones could have been removed because pilots prefered more ammo to more of the firepower. Secondly it might have been the cenzorship that deleted the outer MGs ports at the wing leading edges. But the another difference between the F4F-3 and the F4F-4 was the Pitot tube. All of the F-3s had the long straight one at almost 2/3 of the wingspan of the port wing leading edge while the F-4 had the short one at the underside of the port wing tip. And the kind of the probe can be noticed there.

 

[Martin06]

Ahh I see, thank you very much.

 

[Wurger]

My pleasure. Here you are the comparing of the two kinds of the Pitot probe ... the left one of the F-3 and the right one of the F-4.

 

[R Leonard]

Removing guns just because of some pilot's preference was an extremely big no-no. More likely the outboard gunports were covered with tape.

 

[Denniss]

May this be an early production FM-1 ?
They had only four guns, basically a -4 with -3's armament setup

 

[fubar57]

According to here.... Operation Torch Image Gallery its an F4F-4 from VF-4 on a photo-recon mission during Operation Torch. Might explain the lack of two guns

 

[Wurger]

May this be an early production FM-1 ?
They had only four guns, basically a -4 with -3's armament setup

Sounds good. But not sure if the Torch operation was the time the kites were in service with the squadron.

Removing guns just because of some pilot's preference was an extremely big no-no. More likely the outboard gunports were covered with tape.

That is also possible. Especially if we have a close up view at the leading edge where something like the darker square patch can be noticed. See the yellow arrow. Also please pay the attention to the leading edge at the wing root where the number 28 can be noticed in the shadow ( the red arrow ). Its top part is almost unvisible because of the sun light and its glare there.

 

[Wurger]

Sounds good. But not sure if the Torch operation was the time the kites were in service with the squadron.

I have checked on that in a book by Dana Bell "Aircraft Pictorial vol.4 - F4F Wildcat". There is stated that the VF-4 renamed to the VF-41 later in 1941 used the F4F-4 from January 1941 to August 1943. From September 1943 to April 1944 used the F4F-4, FM-1, FM-2. So no FM-1 in the Torch operation in 1942 rather.
Also there is the same pic posted in the first post with caption it is the F4F-4P version that was the photo-recon kite.

 

[elbmc1969]

That is also possible. Especially if we have a close up view at the leading edge where something like the darker square patch can be noticed. See the yellow arrow.

View attachment 728135

Removing the outer guns wouldn't make the gunports disappear.

 

[WARSPITER]

The first FM1 was flying at the end of August 1942 so it is possible the picture shows one.

 

[Wurger]

The first FM1 was flying at the end of August 1942 so it is possible the picture shows one.

All books about the Wildcat say on 31st August. But it doesn't mean that the delivering of the FM-1s started on the same day. The Torch operation started on 7/8th November 1942. So there is the two months difference. Dana Bell states that the VF-4 (VF-41) used F4F-4 at that time. The FM-1s appeared later. Also the VF-9 used the F-4 variant of the Wilcat at the same time period but not the FM-1. See my post #14 above.

Removing the outer guns wouldn't make the gunports disappear.

The caption in the Dana Bell's book says that's the F4F-4P, the photo-recon plane. As mamo serves that's a field modification done in the same way as the F4F-3P. This means that the base was the F4F-4 and there was added the camera with its mounts and the small window in the fuselage . It is very likely they could dismount the outher MGs to make the variant lighter. Especially that the version was fitted with the additional underwing fuel tanks. The remaining gunports at the wing leading edge could have been covered with a fabric patch and overpainted.

Here is a shot of the F4F-4P I found years ago via the net. IMHO that's the same Wildcat no.28 wiating for lifting to the aircraft carrier flight deck. The caption says it was a F4F-4P embarked on the (CV-4) USS Ranger used for the Torch operation. Unfortunately it isn't of the greatest quality and the open ports for the inner MGs at the wing leading edge can be noticed only.

the source: the net.

 

[Martin06]

All books about the Wildcat say on 31st August. But it doesn't mean that the delivering of the FM-1s started on the same day. The Torch operation started on 7/8th November 1942. So there is the two months difference. Dana Bell states that the VF-4 (VF-41) used F4F-4 at that time. Also the VF-9 used the variant of the Wilcat at the same time period. See my post #14 above.



The caption in the Dana Bell's book says that's the F4F-4P, the photo-recon plane. As mamo serves that's a field modification done in the same way as the F4F-3P. This means that the base was the F4F-4 and there was added the camera with its mounts and the small window in the fuselage . It is very likely they could dismount the outher MGs to make the variant lighter. Especially that the version was fitted with the additional underwing fuel tanks. The remaining gunports at the wing leading edge could have been covered with a fabric patch and overpainted.

Here is a shot of the F4F-4P I found years ago via the net. IMHO that's the same Wildcat no.28 wiating for lifting to the aircraft carrier flight deck. The caption says it was a F4F-4P embarked on the (CV-4) USS Ranger used for the Torch operations. Unfortunately it isn't of the greatest quality and the open ports for the inner MGs at the wing leading edge can be noticed only.

View attachment 728228
the source: the net.

Wurger many thanks for your kind help.

 

[Wurger]

My pleasure. I believe D Dana Bell can shade a light but I haven't seen him on line for some of time.

 

[Wurger]

And some addition ... the cenzorship ...

the F4F-4 code 29-GF-9 ... two shots with the number and one without ... ( please also note that the open ports for the outer MGs also are unvisible in the first pic )

And the well known image of the F4F-4s of the VF-9 and VF-41 on the (CV-4) USS Ranger flight deck during the operation Torch with and without the squadron codes.

the pic source: the net,

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