F4U-4 vs P-51D

[davparlr]

There is really something about the R-2800
Now, how about P-51 with those useful 2000 HP in early 1943...750 km/h perhaps?

I assume you are talking about a P-51 with the R2800. That would be a entirely new aircraft.

 

[drgondog]

I assume you are talking about a P-51 with the R2800. That would be a entirely new aircraft.

Or get the 1650-9 w/150 octane, 90" hg and WI out sooner!

 

[davparlr]

Or get the 1650-9 w/150 octane, 90" hg and WI out sooner!

What would that have required technology wise and how much sooner could it have been accomplished.

 

[davparlr]

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, dad was in the Death of the Luftwaffe series. He said it was pretty accurate. There have been a lot of magazine and newspaper articles about him. He is probably America's last ace in that he was officially recognized by the American Ace's Association for the last 2 planes he shot down. He is doing well. He is 87 and is going to help me put some brakes on his car tomorrow. I hope to do as well at his age. Any questions are welcome. We need to never forget these great patriots.

Could you ask your dad a few of questions for me?

1. What kind of preparations did he have as far a intelligence on the German fighters and their performance against the P-51 as he was assigned to the ETO, i.e., for the Pacific, I am sure the main theme was don't turn with the Japanese planes?
2. What was the requirements for boost levels at his squadron and how did he personally feel about using boost power.
3. What kind of confidence did he have in the P-51 in dogfighting the German aircraft? Of course I understand the loyality of a pilot to a plane that took him into combat and brought him back.

 

[davparlr]

Or get the 1650-9 w/150 octane, 90" hg and WI out sooner!

You Dad flew the P-51, right? What would be his answers to the same questions?

1. What kind of preparations did he have as far a intelligence on the German fighters and their performance against the P-51 as he was assigned to the ETO, i.e., for the Pacific, I am sure the main theme was don't turn with the Japanese planes?
2. What was the requirements for boost levels at his squadron and how did he personally feel about using boost power.
3. What kind of confidence did he have in the P-51 in dogfighting the German aircraft? Of course I understand the loyality of a pilot to a plane that took him into combat and brought him back?

 

[baldpuki]

I'll have a chat with him about these questions. I spent a couple of hours with him today changing brakes on his car. I wish I had seen this sooner. I did ask him again about the Corsair. He said he had about 100-200 hours in it. He loved the plane and especially how well it landed. Wide gear with geat shocks.

 

[tomo pauk]

I assume you are talking about a P-51 with the R2800. That would be a entirely new aircraft.

Yep, the P-51A would evolve into something like LaGG3 -> La5, or Ki-61 -> Ki-100.

 

[billswagger]

Data on the climb rate of the F4U-4 varies with the source. The one you quote does not match other flight test data or Dean's America's Hundred Thousand. Looking at other flight test data and correcting for horsepower variables, I calculated the climb at SL of the F4U-4 at about 4430 ft/min which is also about the number Vought arrived at (4380 ft/min at 12400 lbs). Dean had less, but I think it is in error, possibly listing Mil power performance as Combat power. I think the 4800 number is high.

Ironically, 4430 ft/min at SL is also the flight test results for the P-51B at fighter weight.

The numbers i quoted were based on this performance test:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u-4.pdf

If you look at the performance table at the top of page 2, the number (2) represents a combat configuration with a 12480 lb load and engine at max power.
Its kind of hard to find at first but in the first table, its on the bottom half just under (1) which represents the drop tank configuration.

top speed 393 knots (452 mph) and best climb 4770 ft/min. there are corresponding graphs below.

I think that sources vary because data can be averaged, for example time to climb to 20k ft was 4.9 minutes. That averages out to 4081 ft/min.
Furthermore, some books are decades old which still have great information but in that time more material has been declassified and other conclusions can be drawn.

 

[drgondog]

You Dad flew the P-51, right? What would be his answers to the same questions?

1. What kind of preparations did he have as far a intelligence on the German fighters and their performance against the P-51 as he was assigned to the ETO, i.e., for the Pacific, I am sure the main theme was don't turn with the Japanese planes?
2. What was the requirements for boost levels at his squadron and how did he personally feel about using boost power.
3. What kind of confidence did he have in the P-51 in dogfighting the German aircraft? Of course I understand the loyality of a pilot to a plane that took him into combat and brought him back?

1. I suspect that at Goxhill where all the new ETO pilots transitioned, there were discussions based on opinions and tribal knowledge from the veteran check out pilots. The 8th AF also published a handbook from multiple group, squadron leaders and aces discussing tactics - including match ups against Fw 190 and Me 109.

2. The boost levels prior to June 1944 were 67" EWP for ~ 5 minutes but the new 150 Octane stuff arriving in June enabled 72". I don't know what he felt about full boost but I do know he ran it through the gate on at least a couple of chases.

3. He had a great deal of confidence. From his encounter reports he turned, dove, climbed and in one occasion on August six, looped inside his opponent by deploying flaps - on the deck. He came out of the loop in position to fire and the 109 failed to pull out in time.

He was aware that a.) the 109 had very good comparative perfromance at middle speeds and altitudes, b.) that a 109 could climb faster at a steeper angle, c.) that a Fw 190 was also tough at medium to low altitudes.

In his 109 scores, he out turned two 109s, out dove two, out looped one, closed on two from behind - and had a 'draw' in one turning fight at 15,000 in which he did not get deflection in 720 degrees and his wingman cut the corner and shot him down.

 

[baldpuki]

Wow, drgondog...you tell the story better than my father! ha. I think you are correct on all answers. Dad can't quite remember the boost levels, but I am sure your analysis is correct. Well said sir! Dad said he would be happy to answer any questions.

 

[drgondog]

What would that have required technology wise and how much sooner could it have been accomplished.

Dave - I simply don't know the development cycle on the fuel but believe it was Shell. Curiously, Doolittle was not only 'close' to Shell before the war but very close after the war.

On the 1650-9 it was heavier due to the thicker wall and had additional features such as end to end oil feed on the crankshaft, simmonds boost control as well as water injection system adapted to the pressure inection carburetor. The original design had some issues with the Simmonds boost control at high altitude that rendered it back to -7 performance when it wasn't working properly - and not fully solved until late 1946.

The original boost limit was 80" w/water injection but raised to 90" after the war was over.

Simple answer - the 1650-9 development probably could not have been accelerated any more.

 

[drgondog]

Wow, drgondog...you tell the story better than my father! ha. I think you are correct on all answers. Dad can't quite remember the boost levels, but I am sure your analysis is correct. Well said sir! Dad said he would be happy to answer any questions.

Which group did he fly with? my father was with 355th out of Steeple Morden and post VE day Gablingen.

 

[baldpuki]

Dad was in the 352nd (the BlueNosers) under Col. Meyers. They were first in England and then transfered to Asche Belgium right before Christmas 1944.

 

[davparlr]

Dad was in the 352nd (the BlueNosers) under Col. Meyers. They were first in England and then transfered to Asche Belgium right before Christmas 1944.

I am sorry about being a pest, but these heros are becoming more rare and lots of knowledge is lost. Maybe you have, but if you have not you should sit down with him and gather as much info as possible. Some more questions from me.

1. What were the main operational maintenance issues with the P-51.

2. Was there any concern about the Germans because of their Dec offensive. He must have arrived just as the tide was turning. Asche appears to only be about 100 miles from Bastogne.

3. What was his opinion of command in the ETO? What were some of the dumbest procedures?

4. Did he fly any escort missions? If so, what did he think of them?

5. What did he like about the Mustang and its cockpit? What bothered him?

6. What was his opinion of the gunsight? How did he feel about the effectiveness of the 50 cal.? Was there problems with jamming?

 

[baldpuki]

No problem. I'll answer some of your questions and get answers to the others when I can.
Dad was a bit concerned about the German air offensive in that he was caught on the ground on Jan 1, 45 when the Germans bounced their field. He and the other 11 pilots got off the ground and ended up shooting down 23 German planes. Dad got 4 that day. Google Y-29 and you can read all about it.

Dad flew mainly escort missions. He had the greatest respect for bomber crews. He has never felt so helpless, though, as when he would sit off to the side and watch bomber after bomber go down from flak.

I don't know his opinion of the gunsight, but his bulb burnt out after his first kill on Jan 1, 45 and he had to shoot the rest down without the gunsight. The second plane he shot down was at quite a long distance, too.

 

[davparlr]

I read the report and watched the Dogfight episode. Excellent!

 

[drgondog]

No problem. I'll answer some of your questions and get answers to the others when I can.
Dad was a bit concerned about the German air offensive in that he was caught on the ground on Jan 1, 45 when the Germans bounced their field. He and the other 11 pilots got off the ground and ended up shooting down 23 German planes. Dad got 4 that day. Google Y-29 and you can read all about it.

Dad flew mainly escort missions. He had the greatest respect for bomber crews. He has never felt so helpless, though, as when he would sit off to the side and watch bomber after bomber go down from flak.

I don't know his opinion of the gunsight, but his bulb burnt out after his first kill on Jan 1, 45 and he had to shoot the rest down without the gunsight. The second plane he shot down was at quite a long distance, too.

Sanford Kenneth Moats? DSC for 1/1/45

 

[baldpuki]

Dad got the Silver Star for shooting down 3. It was later confirmed that he actually got 4, so missed out on the DSC at the time. Moats got 4 that day, I think, and was awarded the DSC.

 

[drgondog]

Dad got the Silver Star for shooting down 3. It was later confirmed that he actually got 4, so missed out on the DSC at the time. Moats got 4 that day, I think, and was awarded the DSC.

So, twenty questions time? Whisner and moats got four, stewart got three, rigby got three. Rigby had one more in November for a total of four air, Stewart had one also in Novemeber for a total of four air and moats had 8.5 air including 1/1/45

Stewart and Rigby also got one on the ground to become 8th AF combined aces.

Respect for all of them.

 

[baldpuki]

Also, dad got credit for both of the planes he put in 1/2 for on jan 1, (no one else claimed the other 1/2's) later to be awarded an official "air Ace" a few years ago. Always bugged him that he didn't pursue it at the time, but he figured there were more fish in the pond. Nice to see him finally recognized by he American Aces Association. He is still going the rounds with the Air Force for them to correct their records. They seem to be stalling until dad dies of old age.