feasibility of keeping WW I battleships around for WW II.

Shortround6 · Jan 16, 2022

British had trouble with ships shooting 12 in and 13.5 in guns.
If you don't use enough armor the size of your guns may not matter.
the Repulse and Renown were looked at with horror when they showed up at Scappa Flow.

The two rows of scuttles showed anybody who glanced at them they were not fit for gun duel.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 16, 2022

The Basket said:
Don't bring 11 inches to a 15 inch gunfight.

That's why Scheer got out of Dodge when he knew what's what.

Right, and that's why for all their armor I'm not satisfied calling the Ugly Sisters "fast Battleships."

The Basket · Jan 16, 2022

Don't call them ugly Bro.

They out trying to live their best life. They trying their best. Makeup and wine and it's in the lap of the gods.

Sinking of Glorious alone probably pays for the manufacturing so they got back plenty in return. 11 inch guns no good but they worked it.

I will say Renown was well armed and fast. Can't hit what you can't chase. So in open water Renown can run away nicely. Maybe after Jutland I be wanting 12 inches of armour. But Renown was fast for a big girl. Just like Jackie Fisher likes em.

Shortround6 · Jan 16, 2022

Classic Fisher.
Egg shells armed with Sedge hammers.

Speed did not equal protection.

The Basket · Jan 17, 2022

I will argue for New Zealand as a thing but Renown....ok you got me.

I cannot really justify Renown in its 1916 form.

Why have 15 inch guns unless it's going against something big and minimum threat would be Derfflinger.

Armour wise the Renown is nothing. Cannot take even a single punch. Yeah faster than Derfflinger but one lucky hit and it's boom time.

So I will give you that one. Can't argue with that.

The Basket · Jan 27, 2022

Ships as deterrent.

I would say more ships equals more deterrent so johnny foreigner has a new wrinkle to think about before he dares to tangle with the Empire.

So thickness of armour is not important if Johnny foreigner is cowering under his bed by the sheer undiluted might of the RN.

Indefatigable, New Zealand and Australia may have been glass cannons but they were 3 Dreadnought armoured cruisers and 3 more than the Kaiserliche Marine had to account for.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 27, 2022

The Basket said:
Don't call them ugly Bro.

They out trying to live their best life. They trying their best. Makeup and wine and it's in the lap of the gods.

You Brits were the ones as nicknamed them the "Ugly Sisters", take it up with Dudley Pound or someone ... bro.

They were fairly weak battlecruisers but good for the Germans to put on a "right, but now we're serious" show. Getting lucky with the Glorious having incompetent leadership ain't much of a feather in the cap of a pair of "battleships". Shit, they ran from an R-class [edited to add: actually, the battlecruiser Renown]. Color me unimpressed.

All the praise these things receive set aside, with 11" guns they were bringing knives to a gunfight.

The Basket · Jan 28, 2022

Not what you got but what you do with it.

Not saying the Scharnhorsts were god tier but their service history was pretty good.

Had the 15 inch guns installed as per spec then pretty spectacular.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 28, 2022

The Basket said:
Not what you got but what you do with it.

Not saying the Scharnhorsts were god tier but their service history was pretty good.

Had the 15 inch guns installed as per spec then pretty spectacular.

Yeah, those fifteens would have made them damned good.

The Germans got some good service out of the ships, true. Imagine the Uglies armed with 15s stumbling upon Renown.

On the other hand, they often took damage from the weather. Not a good look for anything alleged to be a battleship.

SaparotRob · Jan 28, 2022

I did not know that.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 28, 2022

SaparotRob said:
I did not know that.

Yeah, even after being modified with the Atlantic bow they were shaky. Forgive the use of Wiki but it's quick and in this case accurate:

Four Allied capital ships, the British Hood, Nelson and Rodney, and the French Dunkerque, followed in pursuit. The Germans reached Wilhelmshaven on 27 November, and on the trip both battleships incurred significant damage from heavy seas and winds.[15] Scharnhorst was repaired in Wilhelmshaven, and while in dock, her boilers were overhauled.

[...] the two ships left Wilhelmshaven on the morning of 7 April.[13] They were joined by the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper. Later that day, at around 14:30, the three ships came under attack by a force of British bombers, which failed to make any hits. Heavy winds caused significant structural damage that evening, and flooding contaminated a portion of Scharnhorst's fuel stores.[16]

Following the completion of repairs, Scharnhorst underwent trials in the Baltic before returning to Kiel in December 1940. There she joined Gneisenau, in preparation for Operation Berlin, a planned raid into the Atlantic Ocean designed to wreak havoc on the Allied shipping lanes.[29] Severe storms caused damage to Gneisenau but Scharnhorst was undamaged. The two ships were forced to put into port during the storm: Scharnhorst went to Gotenhafen while Gneisenau went to Kiel for repairs.

Pretty fragile for "battleships", especially BBs which were obviously required to operate in the North Sea and the North Atlantic.

SaparotRob · Jan 28, 2022

Incredible. I had thought more highly of The Sisters thinking they were merely under armed. I didn't know you shouldn't get them wet.

WARSPITER · Jan 28, 2022

The Scharnhorst type came about from the earlier idea that Germany would have to be able to attack shipping between France and Poland
as well as being able to deter any attacks or landings along the German coastal area. This required fast ships which could run easily from
larger types but could also easily take on smaller types - mainly cruisers. As a result they had excellent firepower against most enemy
shipping but it came at a cost in rougher seas. Scharnhorst suffered forward turret flooding in heavy seas and water easily came over the stern
as well.

The Basket · Jan 28, 2022

do not expose the Scharnhorst to light, especially sunlight, which will kill it;

do not let it come in contact with water; and above all, never feed it after midnight.

SaparotRob · Jan 28, 2022

The things one learns here.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 28, 2022

The Basket said:
do not expose the Scharnhorst to light, especially sunlight, which will kill it;

do not let it come in contact with water; and above all, never feed it after midnight.

Nice to have against cruisers, but useless against battleships.

Classic definition of a battlecruiser.

The Basket · Jan 28, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
Nice to have against cruisers, but useless against battleships.

Classic definition of a battlecruiser.

I am trying to formulate a reply.

I can mention that some battlecruisers were better than some earlier battleships?

Derfflinger v Nassau?
Weak sauce I know but that's all I got.

I guess if you have to run away the you ain't no battleship. I actually like your reply and trying my best not to agree with you.

SaparotRob · Jan 28, 2022

Same here, T B.

The Basket · Jan 29, 2022

SaparotRob said:
Same here, T B.

T B?

Tuberculosis? That would have been a better call sign on reflection.

I hate agreeing with people. Especially on the internet. Especially about battlecruisers. Especially about the Royal Navy. Especially about the heyday of the British Empire.

Drives me mad.

SaparotRob · Jan 29, 2022

The Basket said:
T B?

Tuberculosis? That would have been a better call sign on reflection.

I hate agreeing with people. Especially on the internet. Especially about battlecruisers. Especially about the Royal Navy. Especially about the heyday of the British Empire.

Drives me mad.

I think your wrong.

feasibility of keeping WW I battleships around for WW II.

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