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Just : The old Lorraine that took part to Dragoon was launched on april 20, 1913...The French and Italians had nothing newer than 1912, ...
With only 15 capital ships after 1931, Britain was only happy to allow 3 out of service for large repairs / reconstruction at a time during the late 1930s.You would be better off building new ships.
For one thing this requires a dry dock and you only have so many available, most (all?) of which are already being used refits/rebuilds of other ships.
Since this sort of work required around 3 years (maybe a bit less) The British would only allow so many ships out of service at one time to keep from being caught with their pants down (1/2 their ships in dry dock at the same time).
The British didn't even get the Hood, Repulse, Barnham and Malaya rebuilt up to standards, which should have been a priority over the Rs.
And the Treaty restrictions as to what could be done to existing vessels were designed precisely to prevent another arms race by the means you are now proposing.Yes, that's why I suggested if the Treaties were favourable, i.e. allowing such a rebuild while prohibiting a new build. If we leave the Treaties unchanged then what we historically saw is what is not going to change.
To expedite the project while reducing the time out of service, the new centre sections and machinery could be completed while the ships remain in service.
I knew it was a lot more complicated but there was more value to had for the money rebuilding the 2 QEs and the 2 BC than cutting the Rs in half, building a new midships section and then splicing it all back together again (3 piece hulls?) even the treaties allowed them to do it. Or leave the Machinery in the Barham alone and just redo the upper decks and improve the AA.You have the modernisation cycle wrong.
All the QEs underwent a first round of modernisations in the 1920s early 1930s. Barham was the last in that round between 1930 & 1934.
With a later delay to WW2 I'd hate to see all those twin 15" turrets and guns discarded when more Vanguards could be contemplated as the Rs and QEs are removed from service.Without WW2 breaking out I doubt any further reconstructions would have been contemplated. The KGVs were scheduled to complete from 1940-42 with the Lions starting to complete in 1942.
with a longer delay they might have built at least some of the Lions. Which did not use the same guns as the Nelsons. Not quite US 16in shells but 1080kg shells compared to the 15in 879kg shells and a slightly longer range at the same elevation.With a later delay to WW2 I'd hate to see all those twin 15" turrets and guns discarded when more Vanguards could be contemplated as the Rs and QEs are removed from service.
Vanguard was never going to get any sisters.With a later delay to WW2 I'd hate to see all those twin 15" turrets and guns discarded when more Vanguards could be contemplated as the Rs and QEs are removed from service.
Yes, do both. I've just finished reading my copy of The Battleship Builders and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the dreadnought era. The author writes of how after the Treaties led to cancellation of new battleships, the factories that made most of the RN's heavy guns shut down or filled in their pits for other work. Two Lions is all we're going to get. But we have enough 15/L42 guns and mounts to make ten more Vanguards... perhaps one or two is more reasonable.with a longer delay they might have built at least some of the Lions.
It does seem under-armed for its size. Now, making Vanguard a super Agincourt with seven twin 15/L42 mounts would have been interesting, if dangerously incendiary.The DNC, Sir Stanley Goodall, considered a Vanguard type vessel with 4 twin 15" turrets extravagant. Being longer than a 3 turret Lion they consumed more armour for a given level of protection
It's too bad the British were restricted financially and via the Treaties on fortifications as I'd would have liked to have seen some of the nearly two hundred twin 12" turrets be installed in Singapore, Penang and elsewhere in Malaya. The guns were hardly used. Now, we'd need to position them in Singapore and across Malaya (Penang, Kota Bharu, etc.) to counter overland infantry attack. So HE ammunition, higher elevation and clear lines of sight over Johore. As it was, the only British 12" twin battleship gun to become a shore battery is one from the Spanish Dreadnought Jaimie.
Thinking and assumptions that fall flat. If you make it impossible through defensive works for an enemy to choose the likeliest route, then the enemy must come from another route. Surely they taught that at staff college? But the Maginot Line and Singapore suggest not.The problem defending Malaya was the unshakeable belief that attack would come from the South and the sea.
USS Utah was decomissioned as a battleship and reassigned as a training ship (AG-16) and sunk at Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941.
USS Oklahoma was sunk at Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, eventually refloated for scrapping and sunk while under tow in 1947.
USS Arizona goes without saying.
None of the above named ships served during WWII after December of 1941.
There were 17 WW I and interwar USN Battleships
Ship "Hull Number" Class Commissioned Decommissioned
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Utah BB-31 Florida 31-Aug-11 5-Sep-44
Wyoming BB-32 Wyoming 25-Sep-12 1-Aug-47
Arkansas BB-33 Wyoming 17-Sep-12 29-Jul-46
New York BB-34 New York 15-May-14 29-Aug-46
Texas BB-35 New York 12-Mar-14 21-Apr-48
Nevada BB-36 Nevada 11-Mar-16 29-Aug-46
Oklahoma BB-37 Nevada 2-May-16 1-Sep-44
Pennsylvania BB-38 Pennsylvania 12-Jun-16 29-Aug-46
Arizona BB-39 Pennsylvania 17-Oct-16 29-Dec-41
New Mexico BB-40 New Mexico 20-May-18 19-Jul-46
Mississippi BB-41 New Mexico 18-Dec-17 17-Sep-56
Idaho BB-42 New Mexico 24-Mar-19 3-Jul-46
Tennessee BB-43 Tennessee 3-Jun-20 14-Feb-47
California BB-44 Tennessee 10-Aug-21 14-Feb-47
Colorado BB-45 Colorado 30-Aug-23 7-Jan-47
Maryland BB-46 Colorado 21-Jul-21 3-Apr-47
West Virginia BB-48 Colorado 1-Dec-23 9-Jan-47
But that battle was spectacular irony, where those grand Old Ladies, survivors of Pearl Harbor, not only handed the Japanese Navy their ass, but did so in textbook fashion.Aside from Surigao Strait, no American WWI battleships fought against any ships in WWII. For good reason.
Yes. They were slow and the Axis ships didn't want to hang around and fight themno American WWI battleships fought against any ships in WWII. For good reason.
Of note, one of the IJNAS air crew who sank USS Utah died recently.USS Utah was decomissioned as a battleship and reassigned as a training ship (AG-16) and sunk at Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941.