FIAT A.S.8 ENGINE.

Discussion in 'Engines' started by jerryw, Aug 23, 2008.

  1. jerryw

    jerryw Member

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    The Fiat A.S.8 engine was designed and developed in Italy during the early years of WW2 but was not intended for combat use. Its function was to capture the outright air-speed record installed in a specially built aircraft known as the CS15.
    The A.S.8 was a V-16 design with individual cylinders and 45 deg. between the banks. Bore and stroke were 140 X 140mm giving a swept volume of 34.5 litres.
    As with the 24 cylinder A.S.6 seaplane engine, the A.S.8 was designed to turn counter-rotating propellers.
    Info on the internal arrangements of this engine is hard to find. Did this engine have two, side-by-side crankshafts each driving a propeller or was it a conventional V-16; if so, then the reduction gears at the front must have been of unusual design?
    Any information welcomed.
     

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  2. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    #2 red admiral, Aug 23, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2009
    CMASA CS.15
     

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  3. jerryw

    jerryw Member

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    Thank you Red Admiral but can you provide any proof of what you say? One of the patents filed by FIAT SPA clearly shows a 16-cylinder engine with two side-by side crankshafts.
    Also, if it did have just one crank, how did they provide the drive for the two propellers?
     
  4. kool kitty89

    kool kitty89 Well-Known Member

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    For the props it should be similar to what those used with the Griffon, R-2800, and R-4360 etc. were equipped with on various projects durring WWII and post-war. (XB-35, YP-60, Seafang, etc) I believe were geared to be operated by a single shaft.
     
  5. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    I'm pretty sure from the arrangement of the A.38 engine which was based on the AS.8. This was definitely an inline V-16 and also had contra-rotating propellers. The drawing of the installation of the AS.8 above also looks like an inline V16. The contra-rotating propeller has a single input which drives the rear propeller. Then there is a gearing system (could just be a simple bevel gear) that moves the drive to the opposite direction of rotation driving the forward propeller.

    Do you have a link to that patent? I had a quick search but couldn't find anything like it.
     
  6. jerryw

    jerryw Member

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    The only reference I have to the Fiat A.S.8 that gives some description of the internals is by Coggi (Italian text). I've had this translated - the account is a bit vague and is not accompanied by any drawings.
    The patent is GB 360,167 which can be downloaded free from the Espacenet site.
    Drawing attached shows basic layout of the A.S.6 (two 12-cylinder engines in tandem) and the A.S.8(?) (two straight-8 engines, side-by-side)
     

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  7. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    Thanks for that. Its quite an interesting arrangement. Have you any idea why the compressor casing is shaped so strangely?
     
  8. jerryw

    jerryw Member

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    Never mind the compresser shape, Rear Admiral - we are still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that this engine had only one crankshaft!

    If you can't prove it, remove it!!
     
  9. red admiral

    red admiral Member

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    I don't have a great deal of information on the AS.8 to give a definite answer one way or the other. If the angle between the banks is 45° as in post #1 then I'd guess that its a conventional V16 as this is a nice balance angle for the arrangement and the angle between the banks in the patent drawing is not 45°
     
  10. kool kitty89

    kool kitty89 Well-Known Member

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    Looks to be about 30° in the patent.
     
  11. The Red Baron

    The Red Baron New Member

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    Salve, sono Italiano non parlo Inglese,
    per caso mi sono imbattuto sul Vostro Forum e vedo che cercate info sul Fiat AS8

    vi allego la scheda tecnica tratto dal libro "Aereonautica Italiana museo storico catalogo motori"

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Buona lettura

    Saluti
     
  12. Marcogrifo

    Marcogrifo Member

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    Ciao Red Baron,
    benvenuto :)
    Grazie per quello che hai postato, è molto interessante e praticamente sconosciuto per me :)
    Cercherò di tradurre l'articolo in inglese meglio che posso, per poi inserirlo nella discussione.

    Ciao

    For other people: Red Baron doesn't speak english well, so I'm going to translate for him the pages he posted and put them here as soon as possible (and the best I can :rolleyes: ).

    Cheers
     
  13. jerryw

    jerryw Member

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    Ciao Marcogrifo,

    Thank you for your offer to translate the Italian language posts.

    These pages posted by "Red Baron" are very helpful. The little drawing of the crankshaft seems to indicate that there is only one in the engine rather than two as indicated in the patent filed by FIAT.

    What we need now is a drawing to show the gears involved in transmitting the power to the two contra-rotating propellers. From the outside of the engine, it looks as if it is a very symmetrical arrangement.
     
  14. The Red Baron

    The Red Baron New Member

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    Salve Marcogrifo,

    speravo di trovare qualcuno che parlava italiano, così da poter tradurre il tutto!

    anche io sono superappassionato di aerei , motori e tutto ciò che è scienza e tecnica

    peccato che con l'inglese ho sempre avuto seri problemi, in realtà ne ho anche con l'italiano!

    La scheda tecnica del Fiat AS8, l'ho presa dal manuale dei motori dell'aereonautica militare, al museo di "Vigna di Valle" vicino Bracciano RM

    nel manuale ci sono descritti un centinaio di motori, anche a reazione tipo il J79 del' F104

    al museo sono esposti anche vari motori tra cui il Fiat AS6 dell'idrovolante da corsa Macchi Castoldi MC72,
    un vero spettacolo!!!

    Ciao,
     
  15. The Red Baron

    The Red Baron New Member

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    [​IMG]

    Salve Jerryw,

    se non ho capito male state cercando i meccanismi interni di trasmissione degli alberi controrotanti.

    vi posto quelli del AS6 che equipaggiava il macchi MC72, sono uguali a quelli del AS8

    spero di esservi stato utile
    ciao,:D
     
  16. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    Ti do il benvenuto The Red Baron lascio il lavoro di traduzione a Marcogrifo che pure io con l'inglese so negato (ma pure con l'italiano in effetti), spero vivamente che posterai i dati dei motori in uso nella regia aeronautica in questa sezione.

    ciao e buon forum

    (in ~english)
    The Red Baron welcome, i left translater work to Marcogrifo, my english is bad (for true too my italian) i hope that you'll post the other info on engine of Regia Aeronautica (italian RAF)
     
  17. Marcogrifo

    Marcogrifo Member

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    #17 Marcogrifo, Nov 15, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2009
    OK, translation is ready :)

    But before few words from the author:

    First of all, I'd say I apologize in advance for every term or sentence may have a weird sound: I tried to do my best here but technical English is sometimes a nightmare for me :oops: (and nontechnical too :lol: ).
    The translation is intentionally almost literal.


    So, here we go:

    Page 115
    Page 116
    Cheers
     
  18. jerryw

    jerryw Member

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    Marcogrifo,

    Well done. Your translation of the text from the "Aereonautica etc" book is very good.

    We still need two things: 1/ now that we know the A.S.8 had only ONE crankshaft, what sort of con-rods were used, fork-and-blade or articulated?
    2/ What was the gear arrangement used to split the power to the two propellers?

    For this we will need a sectional drawing of the motor. In the past I have tried to contact FIAT in Torino and the museum at Vigna di Valle, near Rome where the A.S.8 engine is kept. No luck at all!
     
  19. Marcogrifo

    Marcogrifo Member

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    Thanks Jerry for your kind words :)

    Yes, I'd like to know more about this engine too.
    According to the text on that book seems it had the potential to evolving in a serious competitor of Daimler-Benz's and Rolls-Royce's but its fate was sealed by its ill-fated born...:rolleyes:

    Cheers
     
  20. The Red Baron

    The Red Baron New Member

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