For this youtube-video
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqHYOgH1YXM
I found following commentary:
"jasonmorahan7450
I did the flight modelling for a Ta152C mod in the SAS version of IL2:1946, for which I spent about a year of research that included getting in touch with one of the renowned specialist Ta152 authors Dietmar Hermann and gained some excellent insights incorporated in my modelling, alongside the many other sources I looked into at specialist bookshops.
I would make some corrections, to my understanding. The Jumo 213 was being developed specifically with the very complex supercharging system characteristic of the 213E from the very beginning and the 213A was a follow on from this, it wasn't the other way around. In order to speed it into production it was decided an interim version with a much simpler supercharger would be used as issues were apparent in development of the multiple stage version, such as unreliable kommandogerät gear shifting in the upper stages which could overstress the engine. The Jumo 213 was thus delayed and a simpler version, the 213A was then proposed, but Kurt Tank himself had already decided he preferred the Daimler engine for this reason at this point, which was late 42 to early 43 and he was quite vocal about it.
All Ta152 had the MW50 boost system fitted. Pilot accounts include use of the system as well as GM-1. The Ta152H0R11 preproduction aircraft used Fw190A6 wings lengthened so did not have the fuel tanks. They did have both fuselage fuel tanks in common with the Fw190. The instability issue came about when an ETC500 bomb rack was fitted, which was an RLM requirement from February 1943 for all new fighter models and both fuselage tanks and the MW50 tank was filled and a GM-1 system was fitted, which added another 300kg all by itself and that threw the CoG just all the way out and made the aircraft ridiculously unstable and this would only get worse in the production model when the fuel tanks were fitted to the wings. But this was discovered during the prototyping phase in 43 and the solution had already been arranged for the deletion of one of the fuselage fuel tanks in production models. This meant the extended range of the Ta152 over the Fw190 would not be achieved as had been proposed with two fuselage and two wing tanks and instead the Ta152 would only carry marginally more fuel than a regular Fw190 with one fuselage tank and two small wing tanks. This would be in addition to the MW50 tank and GM-1 fitment, together with an ETC500 wet piped centre store and the aircraft remained stable, barely but it was workable. In the meantime the preproduction aircraft despite lacking wing tanks were given a liquid stores restriction such as described in the video which included leaving a fuselage tank and the MW50 tank empty if the ETC rack was fitted, although IIRC the GM-1 system was fitted.
The problem with GM-1 wasn't not being fitted, it was that it completely screwed with the kommandogerät of the Jumo 213E motor and the gearshifts in the upper stage became completely unreliable when trying to punch into the 12-14,000 metre flight regime the aircraft was supposed to be capable of as a high-powered interceptor. And it wasn't the only problem at high altitude, the pressurised cockpit system was so rudimentary at that stage of technology for a mass-produced fighter, essentially using slave labour that it was also, completely unreliable and so very few actual accounts of reaching the 14,500m combat ceiling were ever recorded, most attempts resulting in the pilot losing consciousness before reaching 12,000m. This, in fact resulted in a flight ceiling restriction during service trials of 10,500m for pilot safety for both JG301 and Jv44. The Messerschmitt Me109 could fly this high and that's also the altitude a Ta152C using the Daimler engine could accomplish some 760km/h using MW50 with overboost since the throttle altitude of the DB603LA is 11,500m and that's just using a single speed supercharger with two stages because it just has that much swept capacity to pump air with and a really big supercharger, really big. Tank liked the Daimler better, I do too. The Jumo/GM-1 idea was crap and the 14,500m requirement was only achievable using GM-1 in the Jumo. The supercharger system was way too complicated. The Daimler just used big gigantic pistons and a massive supercharger casing with one extra stage to do the trick. It worked. It was simple.
But the whole thing about the Jumo motor, where it actually shines is at 7-8000 metres and people don't realise this. They never question why was JG301 freijäger patrol height specifically assigned at 7000 metres? The Jumo has 1800 horsepower at this height just out of the box, no special boost, no special conditions, it's just the operational regime at military power and totally reliable. That's what the trick supercharger system that barely worked did for you. Almost nothing on the planet had 1800hp at 7-8000m. It would climb at that height like you were doing aerobatics just above an aerodrome at low altitude in a biplane, it is that much power and prop bite. At 7-8000m the Ta152H was absolute king of the skies. Not 14,000m, not 5,000m, not even 10,000m. Although mind you, and this was remarkable, it was still one of the fastest of anything all the way from sea level to 11,500m and there's no arguing that. Just it really ruled 7-8,000m and that's the Jumo 213E (or F).Dietmar Hermann assured me however the RLM had planned on replacing the Jumo Ta152H1 with a DB603LA powered Ta152H2 had the war continued. The Daimler was just better. And the realistic Höhenjäger extreme performance flight regime with all this in hindsight by 1945 was in fact 9,500-11,500m. Not 14,000 metres. That was reality."
What do the experts think about this?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqHYOgH1YXM
I found following commentary:
"jasonmorahan7450
I did the flight modelling for a Ta152C mod in the SAS version of IL2:1946, for which I spent about a year of research that included getting in touch with one of the renowned specialist Ta152 authors Dietmar Hermann and gained some excellent insights incorporated in my modelling, alongside the many other sources I looked into at specialist bookshops.
I would make some corrections, to my understanding. The Jumo 213 was being developed specifically with the very complex supercharging system characteristic of the 213E from the very beginning and the 213A was a follow on from this, it wasn't the other way around. In order to speed it into production it was decided an interim version with a much simpler supercharger would be used as issues were apparent in development of the multiple stage version, such as unreliable kommandogerät gear shifting in the upper stages which could overstress the engine. The Jumo 213 was thus delayed and a simpler version, the 213A was then proposed, but Kurt Tank himself had already decided he preferred the Daimler engine for this reason at this point, which was late 42 to early 43 and he was quite vocal about it.
All Ta152 had the MW50 boost system fitted. Pilot accounts include use of the system as well as GM-1. The Ta152H0R11 preproduction aircraft used Fw190A6 wings lengthened so did not have the fuel tanks. They did have both fuselage fuel tanks in common with the Fw190. The instability issue came about when an ETC500 bomb rack was fitted, which was an RLM requirement from February 1943 for all new fighter models and both fuselage tanks and the MW50 tank was filled and a GM-1 system was fitted, which added another 300kg all by itself and that threw the CoG just all the way out and made the aircraft ridiculously unstable and this would only get worse in the production model when the fuel tanks were fitted to the wings. But this was discovered during the prototyping phase in 43 and the solution had already been arranged for the deletion of one of the fuselage fuel tanks in production models. This meant the extended range of the Ta152 over the Fw190 would not be achieved as had been proposed with two fuselage and two wing tanks and instead the Ta152 would only carry marginally more fuel than a regular Fw190 with one fuselage tank and two small wing tanks. This would be in addition to the MW50 tank and GM-1 fitment, together with an ETC500 wet piped centre store and the aircraft remained stable, barely but it was workable. In the meantime the preproduction aircraft despite lacking wing tanks were given a liquid stores restriction such as described in the video which included leaving a fuselage tank and the MW50 tank empty if the ETC rack was fitted, although IIRC the GM-1 system was fitted.
The problem with GM-1 wasn't not being fitted, it was that it completely screwed with the kommandogerät of the Jumo 213E motor and the gearshifts in the upper stage became completely unreliable when trying to punch into the 12-14,000 metre flight regime the aircraft was supposed to be capable of as a high-powered interceptor. And it wasn't the only problem at high altitude, the pressurised cockpit system was so rudimentary at that stage of technology for a mass-produced fighter, essentially using slave labour that it was also, completely unreliable and so very few actual accounts of reaching the 14,500m combat ceiling were ever recorded, most attempts resulting in the pilot losing consciousness before reaching 12,000m. This, in fact resulted in a flight ceiling restriction during service trials of 10,500m for pilot safety for both JG301 and Jv44. The Messerschmitt Me109 could fly this high and that's also the altitude a Ta152C using the Daimler engine could accomplish some 760km/h using MW50 with overboost since the throttle altitude of the DB603LA is 11,500m and that's just using a single speed supercharger with two stages because it just has that much swept capacity to pump air with and a really big supercharger, really big. Tank liked the Daimler better, I do too. The Jumo/GM-1 idea was crap and the 14,500m requirement was only achievable using GM-1 in the Jumo. The supercharger system was way too complicated. The Daimler just used big gigantic pistons and a massive supercharger casing with one extra stage to do the trick. It worked. It was simple.
But the whole thing about the Jumo motor, where it actually shines is at 7-8000 metres and people don't realise this. They never question why was JG301 freijäger patrol height specifically assigned at 7000 metres? The Jumo has 1800 horsepower at this height just out of the box, no special boost, no special conditions, it's just the operational regime at military power and totally reliable. That's what the trick supercharger system that barely worked did for you. Almost nothing on the planet had 1800hp at 7-8000m. It would climb at that height like you were doing aerobatics just above an aerodrome at low altitude in a biplane, it is that much power and prop bite. At 7-8000m the Ta152H was absolute king of the skies. Not 14,000m, not 5,000m, not even 10,000m. Although mind you, and this was remarkable, it was still one of the fastest of anything all the way from sea level to 11,500m and there's no arguing that. Just it really ruled 7-8,000m and that's the Jumo 213E (or F).Dietmar Hermann assured me however the RLM had planned on replacing the Jumo Ta152H1 with a DB603LA powered Ta152H2 had the war continued. The Daimler was just better. And the realistic Höhenjäger extreme performance flight regime with all this in hindsight by 1945 was in fact 9,500-11,500m. Not 14,000 metres. That was reality."
What do the experts think about this?
Last edited by a moderator:
