Fw-190 A Series - Hypothetical Senario Question

[Timppa]

The Daimler 603 Fw-190 is a long way off -
The Jumo 213 Fw-190 is a long way off -
Bronc

This is not correct btw.

The first Fw-190V13 with DB603 flew in March 1942. The conversion went smoothly , without any technical problems.
The production of the FW 190C was have to begun in March 1943 and continued until March 1944, with 727 aircraft.
Projected performance with C3 fuel:
600 km/h ( 370 mph) at sea level.
730 km/h ( 454 mph) at 7 km ( 23,000ft)
Armament:
2xMG131 with 250rpg (cowl guns)
2xMG151 with 250 rpg (at wing roots)
1xMK103 with 65rpg (engine cannon)
Option with 2 additional MG151 in outer wings

Later Daimler Benz tested tested the the FW190CF+OW W.Nr. 0038 (fuel grade not given):
Speed OTD: 570 km/h (355 mph)
Speed at 7 km (23,000 ft): 720 km/h (447mph)
DB Conclusion: The performance numbers matches with the FW numbers within 1%.

Eventually the RLM cancelled the FW190C in late 1942 , possibly because of the needs of the Me-410 -program.

The above info is from Dietmar Hermann's book of Fw190D.

 

[riacrato]

Yes it's one of the big mistakes rooted in the "what we have is good enough" thinking that military planners seem to suffer from in general.

In 1942 the Fw 190 A was as good as or better than its opponents. It should've already been clear though that no serious performance increase was possible short-term with the BMW 801. At least not without increasing demand for scarce materials. At the same time they prioritized the DB 603 A for an aircraft that was maybe good, but essentially relied on a failed concept. The only role the Me 410 really had lasting success was as an interdictor, a role that could've been fulfilled with an aircraft equipped with BMW 801 C-2s just as easily.

 

[Mosshorn]

The first Fw-190V13 with DB603 flew in March 1942. The conversion went smoothly , without any technical problems. The production of the FW 190C was have to begun in March 1943 and continued until March 1944, with 727 aircraft.

Projected performance with C3 fuel:
600 km/h ( 370 mph) at sea level.
730 km/h ( 454 mph) at 7 km ( 23,000ft)
Armament:
2xMG131 with 250rpg (cowl guns)
2xMG151 with 250 rpg (at wing roots)
1xMK103 with 65rpg (engine cannon)
Option with 2 additional MG151 in outer wings

Later Daimler Benz tested tested the the FW190CF+OW W.Nr. 0038 (fuel grade not given):
Speed OTD: 570 km/h (355 mph)
Speed at 7 km (23,000 ft): 720 km/h (447mph)
DB Conclusion: The performance numbers matches with the FW numbers within 1%.

Eventually the RLM cancelled the FW190C in late 1942 , possibly because of the needs of the Me-410 -program.

The inference that can be drawn from the above is that someone (who was very high up) in the RLM was a mole whose job was to "throw the game" for the Nazi effort. The absurdity of cancelling the above aircraft gives me a headache. (I'm glad they did, but it gives me a headache.)

Drop the MG131 cowl guns and you basically have an up-gunned D-12/13 that is operational in mid-1943. Having the Mk103 in the nose instead of the Mk-108 would have made this aircraft a true long-range killer.

Moss

 

[davebender]

RLM cancelled the FW190C in late 1942 , possibly because of the needs of the Me-410 -program.

RLM cancellation of the DB603 engine program during 1937 is the root cause. Consequently the engine entered production relatively late and was never produced in large numbers.

It's my understanding that only about 9,000 DB603 engines were produced. Over 60,000 each of the DB601/605 and Jumo211 V12 were produced. Produce 60,000 DB603 engines and there would be plenty to go around for the Fw-190, Me-410 and Do-217 aircraft programs. In fact the Me-109 could probably be entirely phased out once the Fw-190C reaches mass production.

 

[Milosh]

That 9000 DB603 produced is about 2000 more than what the US Strategic Bombing Survey says.

Total engine production for DB was just under 71,500 engines.

U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Aircraft Division Industry Report

 

[davebender]

That 9000 DB603 produced is about 2000 more than what the US Strategic Bombing Survey says.

What's 2,000 engines among friends?

I doubt the DB603 was much more expensive to produce then the DB601/DB605. After all it was essentially just a larger version of the same engine. I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation for RLM cancellation of the DB603 engine during 1937.

 

[Mosshorn]

I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation for RLM cancellation of the DB603 engine during 1937.

Admiral Wilhelm Franz Canaris (January 1, 1887 – April 9, 1945) was head of the Abwehr (the German military intelligence service) from 1935 to 1944 and member of the German Resistance.

Fantastic Wiki article here: Wilhelm Canaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given Admiral Canaris' direct involvement with MI6 and the substantial contributions he made towards the Allied victory, wouldn't it be amazing if like-minded people did the same thing and basically sand-bagged the Nazi effort?

The "right" people in the RLM would have done...well...would have done exactly what they did.

It makes perfect sense, and maybe this is why the British refuse to release their intelligence files until 2050.

Moss

 

[davebender]

Admiral Canaris' direct involvement with MI6 and the substantial contributions he made towards the Allied victory

What does Admiral Canaris have to do with development of the DB603 engine and Fw-190 fighter aircraft?

 

[Mosshorn]

Wouldn't it be amazing if anti-Hitler minded people in the RLM sand-bagged the Nazi effort like Admiral Canaris?

They would have done exactly what happened--delayed the DB 603 (and literally everything else.)

Moss

 

[riacrato]

meanwhile in the real world...

the DB603 was cancelled because a) it was deemed to take too long to finish for the short war Germany planned, b) there were already several projects in its performance class (or with higher performance) in the pipe that were supposed to be completed sooner and c) DB was to focus on production of their DB601 series, which was in seriously short supply at the time.

 

[davebender]

the DB603 was cancelled because

a) it was deemed to take too long to finish for the short war Germany planned
--------------------------------------------------------------
What war was Germany planning to fight during 1937, a time period when they had practically no armed forces worthy of the name?


b) there were already several projects in its performance class (or with higher performance) in the pipe
---------------------------------------------------------------
RLM funded the Jumo222 during 1937. However the program was cancelled when almost production ready. Which makes this hypothesis rather unlikely.


c) DB was to focus on production of their DB601 series
---------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently not as DB worked on other projects concurrent with DB601/DB605 production. The 24 cylinder DB604 for example which almost certainly was more expensive to develop then the conventional DB603 V12.

 

[riacrato]

What war was Germany planning to fight during 1937, a time period when they had practically no armed forces worthy of the name?
---
a short one obviously. and no armed forces worthy of the name? First of all it is a useless exaggregation and also has little to do with what I said.

RLM funded the Jumo222 during 1937. However the program was cancelled when almost production ready. Which makes this hypothesis rather unlikely.
---
What do you base on that the Jumo was almost production ready Anyways, it would've been more powerful than the DB603.
The Jumo 222 was developed for the Bomber B program and was not really seen as a contestant for the DB 603 (at the time).

The latter was specified originally for the 1400-1500 PS range, hence there was no interest in the program as e.g. the BMW801 offered similar performance and was engineered and produced by the "underemployed" BMW facility in Allach. Only when they announced the engine could potentially reach well into the >2500 PS range did the RLM renew their funding. And btw. the development never truly stopped either, it was continued on internal funding. So whatever effect the cut of official funding had remains debatable.


Apparently not as DB worked on other projects concurrent with DB601/DB605 production. The 24 cylinder DB604 for example which almost certainly was more expensive to develop then the conventional DB603 V12.
---
same as Jumo 222

 

[davebender]

DB603 engine development never truly stopped either, it was continued on internal funding

A 90% slow down in development is almost as bad as stopping. I wonder how many months of development time was lost when RLM cut off funding?

 

[riacrato]

And that number is based on what?

 

[davebender]

A guess.

Unfortunately I don't have any solid numbers as to how much the DB603 engine program was delayed due to the RLM funding cut off. If you or anyone else has such historical data I would like to see it. I would also like to see historical cost data in either marks or man hours for both the DB601 engine and DB603 engine.

 

[riacrato]

No I don't else I had posted them. I don't know how things worked back then, but from my experience in the aero engine company I work now I would very much doubt if the leading engineers working on the project (who usually work on one project 100%) were simply put elsewhere (where anyways?). So I guess the staff was somewhat reduced but the leading engineers remained. Now how much reduction there was is again basis for speculation. But I doubt it was anywhere near your figure: Afterall the progress they made during the timeframe without RLM funding gave them the engine version that ran 2800 PS (on the bench) and returned said funding.

On topic: The best way to get extra performance at the time was to add outer air intakes for the A-5 - A-9 like previously done on a limited numbers of A-3s and A-4s. It was apparently a simple and popular conversion on either factory or squadron level (based on which intake was used). It seemed to have been popular with Lfl.3 pilots (e. g. Egon Mayer) and increased full throttle height from 5.7 to 6.5 km, climb to 10 km from 19.5 to 16 min. According to records the "Weichwerden" (getting soft) of the Fw 190 A-3s which started usually at 8km now was pushed to 9.5km.

I guess the same air intakes could not be used on the A-5 and following subtypes due to the longer cowling and this mod died with the A-4. I wonder why they never tried similar measures with the A-5 airframe. It could've given the western front pilots a fighter that was more competitive at the crucial altitudes where fighting took place in 1943-1944.

#note: the U7 factory mod while incorporating similar air intakes has other modifications as well and it doesn't seem as if the Lfl.3 Fw 190s with the intakes were true U7s.

 

[zoomar]

If you read up on the subject besides wikipedia you will find out it is much more complex than that and that basically technical aspects and the choice of engines "killed" the He 280.

Exactly. Regarding the basic Fw-190A question, I suspect not a lot can be done to improve the overall capability of the BMW 801. I would agree with those that a uniform battery of four MG151 cannon might improve the fighter somewhat...but I'd accelerate the Jumo engine adoption as much as possible.

 

[davebender]

Why not build the Fw-190 for a Jumo engine right from the beginning?

If Germany takes the historical route then the Jumo222A engine will pass a 100 hour test during October 1941. That's got to be at least as reliable as the historical BMW801 radial during October 1941. And a lot more powerful.

 

[Mosshorn]

Henning (HoHun) wrote, "Hermann reports that the full throttle height increased from 6400 m for the A-3 to 7400 m for the A-3/U7 thanks to the external intakes. Reportedly, this means 60% ram efficiency compared to 22% ram efficiency for the standard variant. Unfortunately, he omitted the full throttle heights for climb, or there'd be a good way to cross-check it."

riacrato wrote, " On topic: The best way to get extra performance at the time was to add outer air intakes for the A-5 - A-9 like previously done on a limited numbers of A-3s and A-4s. It was apparently a simple and popular conversion on either factory or squadron level (based on which intake was used). It seemed to have been popular with Lfl.3 pilots (e. g. Egon Mayer) and increased full throttle height from 5.7 to 6.5 km, climb to 10 km from 19.5 to 16 min. According to records the "Weichwerden" (getting soft) of the Fw 190 A-3s which started usually at 8km now was pushed to 9.5km.

I guess the same air intakes could not be used on the A-5 and following subtypes due to the longer cowling and this mod died with the A-4. I wonder why they never tried similar measures with the A-5 airframe. It could've given the western front pilots a fighter that was more competitive at the crucial altitudes where fighting took place in 1943-1944."

I wonder why the Luftwaffe didn't modify all their Fw-190's to get this improved performance??

Moss

 

[Mosshorn]

Was reading Warplanes of the Luftwaffe by David Donald last night.

Shocker Number 1:

a) The Me-410A went into series production in January 1943 with the DB-603A engine (1750 hp.)
b) The Me-410B went into series production in January 1943 with the DB-603G engine (1900 hp.)

A some time during 2+ years of redesign and modification work, someone thought the Me-210, now renamed the Me-410, should be up-engined from the DB-605 to the DB-603 series.

In all, 1,913 Me-410's were built from January, 1943 to September, 1944. Given the need for spare engines, the Me-410 program probably monopolized another 4,000 DB-603 engines.

In short, the Luftwaffe could have been building DB-603A/G powered (Fw-190C series) aircraft in January, 1943. The engines were available but being bolted on Me-410's instead and up to 3,000 Fw-190C's were not built as a result.

Shocker Number 2:

The Heinkel He-219 went into series production in April, 1943 with the DB-603A and 288 He-219's were built. Given the need for spare engines, another 600 DB-603's were made unavailable.

Another 500 Fw-190C series aircraft were not built because of this.

That's 3,500 DB-603A powered Fw-190C's beginning in January, 1943 that were not (and never) built.....

Shocker Number 3:

Instead of bolting on BMW-801D-2 engines on the Ju-188 (like everyone suggested) beginning in early 1944 over 500 were engined with the Jumo-213A. Again, given the need for spare engines, something like 1000 Jumo 213A's were not available for the Fw-190D series. The Ju-188 had priority!!

Perhaps 1,000 Fw-190D series aircraft could have entered production in January, 1944 instead of late July, 1944.

So, for me, in answer to the question posed in this thread: Bolt THE DB-603A on the Fw-190 in January, 1943 and the Jumo-213A on in January, 1944!!

Moss