swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,030
- Jun 25, 2013
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Drgondog and Swampyankee, were there any areas of design that weren't known to designers of WW2 aircraft that led them up blind alleys looking back?
There were several encounters with FW 190 and Bf 109 and F6F - Operation Dragoon in Med and IIRC in North Sea area.
I like the idea of doing some of those same things when I reach retirement age. There's a few museums within reach of me, one of them is a flying museum as well. Just being around that kind of living history on a semi-regular basis fascinates me greatly!I suppose it could be called living a dream. But, I don't get to fly them, and rightly so since most of my flight time is in Cessnas and Pipers, with a smattering of odd time in a few diverse types.
I DO get to help fabricate restoration and repair parts, and get in a lot of riveting and general fabrication, and I never thought I'd get to do that. Volunteering at a museum that flies warbirds DOES help a lot. Anyone can do that if they are lucky enough to live near such a museum. As it happens, I do.
You might try volunteering when you get near retirement. I learned my sheet metal skills within a couple of years of starting, and have been doing it now for about 10 years. I DID get to make a few parts for some rather interesting restorations. I'm really looking forward to seeing our Bell YP-59A fly! It has a lot of my own work in it, along with a LOT of work from about 100 other guys, including real restoration experts who work for and with Steve Hinton.
I would think that two big areas would be ergonomics and damage tolerance. The efficiency of the pilots of the F4U and P-38 were compromised by cockpit design.
Bluff bodies frequently have reduced drag coefficients as Reynolds' number increases; laminar flow is more prone to early separation. Of course, one wants to avoid separation.
One cannot avoid transition from laminar to turbulent flow at very low RN relative to normal flight speeds. The Base components of Parasite Drag are in turbulent flow. Separation due to adverse pressure gradients is a different discussion.
As an aside, do remember that 1) aerodynamicists are all going to be working from the same basic assumptions 2) NACA went to a great deal of effort and expense to make wind tunnels, such as the variable density wind tunnel, to achieve full-scale Reynolds' numbers and subsonic Mach numbers and 3) many of the reported Cd0 values are from flight test data. Or, largely bad, from handbook data.
Agreed - That said, even within the same company the referenced baseline Parasite drag components as function of RN, varied. For example, The P-51B-1 Performance Calcs began with a reference base point of CD vs RN at 1.84x10^6. The Basic Drag build up for the P-51D- was at 2.0x10^6and the P-51H Base Drag build up was at 9x10^6. Even within the NAA Mustang group you had to be a little careful in 'selecting' a CDo for quote.
All of the above Reports picked drag data and components from NACA wind tunnel testing results. A compilation of a range of both airframe low speed drag coefficient and individual component Cd for P-51, 38, 39, 40, F4U, F6F, etc can be found NACA Wartime Report L5A30.. The Wind tunnel airspeed was a uniform 100mph, then each RN was calculated as f(mean aero chord).. All of these were production airframes, not scale models.
Ivan - Flat plate area is a useful tool to compare Total Drag of one airframe vs another for the same airspeed and altitude. The issue is that multiple assumptions must be made to derive Total Thrust of the system as well as some precision on the 'assembled parasite drag components' and some assumptions must me made regarding Induced Drag (namely Oswald efficiency) for a degree of precision there.This business of different CDs even for the "same" aeroplane is exactly why I was asking for the equivalent flat plate area.
It is a much simpler concept and beats trying to figure out whether everyone is using the same reference area.
Here is a good description from a name that seems to come up a lot:
8/26/94
Analytical Methods {NWNet}
The concept of "equivalent flate plate area" comes from noting
that while:
Drag Where: Drag = resistance force
CD = ------------------ rho = density
.5 rho Vel^2 Sref Vel = Velocity
Sref = Ref Area
is nondimensional, the Sref is awkward, as how the reference area is
chosen can differ. So if we instead define:
Drag
f = -------------
.5 rho Vel^2
the Sref no longer appears, but f has the units of length squared. If
English units are used, you get the equivalent flate plate area (f) in
units of square feet. Note, this does not mean that a flate plate of
the same area as f would have the same drag - a flate plate has a CD of
roughly 1.17 (in 3-D flow, according to Hoerner and 1.98 in 2-D flow),
not 1 as implied in the equation! We can see this from:
Drag = CD .5 rho Vel^2 Sref
where Sref is the frontal area of the plate. Hence, the equivalent
flate plate area is:
CD .5 rho Vel^2 Sref
f = ----------------------
.5 rho Vel^2
So you can see that the flate plate of area Sref has an equivalent flat
plate area 1.17 times its true area (in 3-D flow)!
-Dave Lednicer
Analytical Methods, Inc.
NACA Report L5A30 can be found here:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930092668.pdf
By the way when saving a copy locally, don't do as I did a few years back and save it under its original name.
You will never find it again! Name it something appropriate.
- Ivan.
Thanks for the reference to Hoerner. I found a PDF of the book a few years ago but don't use it much because I get lost pretty quick when trying to read it. Chapter 14 looks not to be so bad and even uses a Messerschmitt 109G as an example! I actually do have a few questions about what you wrote but I suppose I should read the chapter first.
.
Hello Tomo Pauk,
Are you certain that the F-8 used external air intakes? There is a beautiful FW 190F-8 in the Udvar Hazy Smithsonian which appears to have normal intakes. Why would extra armour, cowl guns, and extra internal fuel tanks (behind cockpit?) be mutually exclusive?
One thing that hasn't been mentioned thus far is that the F and G series were originally just factory Umrustbausatz special equipment versions of standard A series fighters.
The first F series fighters were just redesignations of ground attack versions of the A-4 series and continued through to factory modifications of the A-9 series
The first G series I believe began as a renaming of ground attack A-5 series.
The FW 190A-5/U8 that was in the USN test would be designated a FW 190G-2 later in the war.
The powerplants of these Jabo were calibrated differently and may have had different equipment but so far I have not been able to find anything that does a direct comparison between a fighter and a ground attack engine. Perhaps the A-5 in the test lacked a pressurized ignition system as I have seen described in other forums. That would explain the engine cut during service ceiling test.
- Ivan.
I think the rapid rise of drag in the Mach .6-.8 region caught a lot of people by surprise. There were a lot of requirements issued for aircraft flying 450-500mph at 15-20,000ft that never came close to being fulfilled. Not to mention the prop tips going supersonic.Drgondog and Swampyankee, were there any areas of design that weren't known to designers of WW2 aircraft that led them up blind alleys looking back?
Speaking of cockpit design, I have read that the FW-190 instruments and controls were very well thought out and because of this most pilots could instinctually find their way around the cockpit with little to no trouble. I never compared it's cockpit to that of the Bf-109 series, but was curious about what details of it's layout were considered an improvement over the Messerschmitt fighter? Also what aspects, if any, weren't as good?
do you know of any books with accounts of the encounters?
Time ago posted from JoeB
"There was only one, May 8 1944 between 800 Sdn FAA Hellcat I's (ie. F6F-3's) off HMS Emperor v. Bf109's of 8 and 10./JG5, off Norway. The Hellcats were initially surprised but 2 Hellcats and 3 Bf109's (a G6 and 2 G2's) were lost per each side's loss accounts."
"All USN F6F victories in Europe were against German bomber and transport types in the invasion of Southern France, flying from CVE's Tulagi and Kasaan Bay. They spotted German fighters at long range once, but the enemy declined to give combat. Those were F6F-5's."
Well, the F4U cockpit seemed to be designed for people over 6 ft tall, which is not particularly sensible when median height of white, American males was 5 ft 8 in, and fewer than 20% were over 6 ft. The P-38 cockpit was so cold, pilots had to deal with frostbite. In others, instruments and controls were placed haphazardly, and without consideration of the difficulty of retraining pilots to a new type or even to their use with heavy clothing and a life vest.
I'll continue the Fw 190 discussion here, from another thread:
I have been in P-47, MiG-15, Bf 109G, FW 190, P-51, P-40 and P-39. P-47 roomiest, MiG-15/Bf 109 cramped but MiG 15 had great visibility. I fit well in the Mig 15 at Eglin in 1954 at age 9. Ditto Bf 109 at age 11.Interesting. In contrast I have heard that the P-47 had a rather cramped cockpit. Any truth to this?
I have been in P-47, MiG-15, Bf 109G, FW 190, P-51, P-40 and P-39. P-47 roomiest, MiG-15/Bf 109 cramped but MiG 15 had great visibility. I fit well in the Mig 15 at Eglin in 1954 at age 9. Ditto Bf 109 at age 11.