Fw-190 Prototype engine changes

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Delycros, do you have a source for these data? its very interesting.

Regarding change from BMW139 to BMW801. The later offered -as stated in the discussion- 50HP extra, which later raised to 200HP. It also had less cooling issues and was more reliable. It included the use of a kommandogerat to simplify the pilot input.

Some information can be found in Alfred Price book, Fw-190 in combat, page 8. However, its not very clear if the change was requested by RLM, or just the iniciative of Focke-Wulf.
 
What would the BMW139 engine look like if development continued until 1942? There would almost certainly be some improvements.
 
I still haven't seen any engine price comparisions!

Can someone give us the price/year of the DB series, the Jumo series, and the BMW 801???
 
price data for 1941 for some German aircraft types, via Olaf Groehlers GdLK, 1910-1980:
Without engine / with engine, in Reichsmarks (RM)

Bf 109E : 58 000 / 85 970
.....27,970 RM for the DB601 engine.

Bf 110C : 155 800 / 210 140
.....54,340 RM for 2 x DB601 engines. 27,170 RM per engine.

He 111H : 203 900 / 265 650
.....61,750 for 2 x Jumo 211 engines. 30,875 per engine.

Ju 88A : 245 200 / 306 950
.....61,750 for 2 x Jumo 211 engines. 30,875 per engine.

Ju 87B : 100 300 / 131 175
.....30,875 for 1 x Jumo 211 engine.

Ju 52 : 125 800 / 163 000
.....37,200 for 3 x BMW132 engines. 12,400 per engine.

I have read somwhere (no longer have the source) that a BMW801 engine cost 45,000 to 65,000 RM during 1942.
 
Well consider 1189 410's and 37 donier 335's. that's 2,492 engines. that could go to single engine FW's, remember this is about plausible alternative histories, I'll take 2,500 FW's all damn day. that also means those factories aren't wasting materials, that also means more streamline training for pilots and better lethality.
 


It should be noted too that the Japanese radial engines weighed only 50-75% of the BMW 801.
Is this a viable scenario? And what would happen if the Germans adopted Japanese engine ideas pre-war?
Top
 

What the hell is this? We're not on a "what if" thread here...

Among the approximations, exaggerations, and delusions in this text, right from the start: the Sakae is not based on the G&R 14M, but rather on Pratt engines.

It must be remembered and affirmed that Japan held licenses for ALL Western engines, English, French, and American, and that their productions are blends and mixes of all these foreign concepts. And, precisely, the engine that incorporated most of the specific features from Gnome-Rhône is the Kinsei, whose cam system, finning, cylinder arrangement, and two-bearing crankshaft (in the first series) are particularly recognizable as typical of these French engines.

One can—no, one must—read : https://www.enginehistory.org/Piston/Japanese/KINSEI.pdf

I'll stop here... wondering if the author of this delusional passage has read Callum Douglas !
 

hey now, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers.
As noted by the fellow member above, the quoted article is an alternate history stuff, not the real history. So some kind of a disclaimer when posting on this site would've been a prudent thing to do.
As for the Japanese engines being light, much lighter than the BMW 801 - that is true. Even the ones that made similar power were much lighter.
 
still over 450 lbs of gross weight savings is cool to think about. Sorry I don't follow the threads close enough.

There are specialized threads on this site—as well as many dedicated sites—that deal with alternative history, or "what if".

But it seems to me that the spirit of all these is to study how the course of history might have evolved if some events had occurred differently, or earlier, or later, or not at all.

A simple example: what would have happened if France and England had declared war on Hitler in Munich in 1938? Or what if these two countries had let Hitler invade Poland in 1939 without reacting? What if France had not surrendered in 1940? What if Mussolini had been in the battle since September 1939? And so on...

And all this is based on more or less reasonable technical hypotheses: if the British had abandoned the Sabre and further developed the Merlin /Griffon, if the Wright R-3350 had been developed earlier, if Allied aircraft had only 20mm cannons instead of 7.7mm machine guns... And so on, bis...

But here we are dealing with delusional hypotheses that are absolutely opposite to what we know about the real capabilities of Germany and Japan. NO country has been able to develop a high-power engine with low-octane gasoline - even the Schneider Trophy engines drank strange mixtures of alcohol, benzol and other chems, and with, of course, a little gasoline...

And the weight estimates given are all fanciful. Don't forget that a lightweight engine is an engine that can't sustain high power! And what about the serious shortage of rare metals suffered by the Axis countries, whose steel industry was below that of the Allies. Read Callum Douglas, you won't waste your time !
 
To revisit the thread (perhaps admins might want to put it in the what-if sub forum?). Davebender no longer frequents here, but anyway:

Spring 1937.
RLM request to develop a new fighter powered by the DB601 engine.

Summer 1938.
RLM change their request. The Fw-190 prototype will use the new BMW139 radial engine.

There seems to be no source that confirms that RLM wanted a new, bespoke fighter powered by the DB 601 engine in 1937. Further, seems like neither the DB-powered He 112 nor the He 100 have never gotten any support by RLM during these 12 months, upping the suspicion further wrt. the new fighter tender.
Fw have had the weight breakdown and a lot of schematics for the BMW-powered future Fw 190 by July of 1938, with a lot of new features on a fighter - even the best engineers will need time to calculate stuff and put down a suggestion for a brand new aircraft.

However:


The DB-601-powered Fw 190 with the small wing (14.9 sqm - 160 sq ft, as it was the case in the 1st 3 prototypes that flew; compare with Bf 109 at 170-175 sq ft) keeps not just the weight reasonable, but also the drag due to the V12 engine choice and the smaller wing. Available in fall of 1939 - probably not, even with the accelerated timeline. An early cancellation of the Fw 187 might've helped the company here, ditto with Fw not making the small quantity of early Bf 110s. Even 1940 seems like a stretch. But 1941 should be very much doable, in greater quantity than for the historical model, with much better reliability and range.
 

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