Definitely, and as an interim measure, why not put the Merlin 45 into a Mk.II airframe sooner? The first flew in late 1940.
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True, but they could bolt in the Merlin XX into a Spitfire I or II in late 1940, since they were in production.
Without having read all of the old part of the thread, I think Tomo have a good point. Even at 360 mph it would still just be an airplane, not a revolution. Useful but not in itself decisive.
As the lightning was a excellent performer and didn't on its own destroy die Luftwaffe when it turned up in Europe, i actually find the comparizon between the two apt. probably the Fw 187 could have filled the same role, but a rather limited role compared to the versatility of Bf 110.
I always liked the Fw 187 but have sobered up on its unlimited potential over the years. Maybe too much is made dependent on how much better it would have been at one of the Bf 110's roles during the specific event the Battle of Britain. Even then, the latter might have done better if not hampered by unsound tactics, that goes for the bf 109 too. It's quite another matter whether BoB was winnable for Germany, I have no very firm opinion on that.
One thing I rarely, if ever, have seen commented on in the many Fw 187-related threads throughout the forum is one problems of improving/updating it (but I have not read through all of them). That is, specifically, the fact that some instrumentation was mounted on the inner engine nacelles, as there was not room in the cockpit, rather like the Hs 129. The extra crewman in the two-seater was placed behind the pilot, but where to put additional stuff demanded by upgrades and additional roles without enlarging the with of the fuselage, compromizing performance?
As said, a fine aircraft no doubt with much potential, but still 'only' an aircraft.
Actually Tomo, that's not true. The 60 Series Merlin was being bench tested in 1940 - remember it was first developed for high altitude variants of the Vickers Wellington, eventually being installed in the Wellington Mk.VI. The first Spitfire to fly fitted with a two-speed-two stage Merlin was Spit III N3297, which did so in September 1941, with a Merlin 61. My proposition, and it's likely this might have happened under the circumstances was that RR escalated development of the 60 series engine for fighters before considering it for bombers. I also didn't say it would be magiced out of thin air in 1940 - its development timeline meant that it was being worked on for high altitude bombers in 1940 - 1941. If impetus was given for it to be pressed for urgent fighter development, there's no reason why the first 60 Series Merlin engined Spitfires couldn't have been in service by late 41, given the time it took for the Spit Vs to be modified on the production line by fitting the 60 Series engine and their introduction into service in 1942.
Yes, you're right about tactics; it does depend on how the type was used in action, which would define what measures were to be taken against it, but my point is that to presume that if a qualitative advantage of any sort was being introduced on the front line, it would be folly to assume that the British would do nothing. The Fw 190's appearance spurred considerable development of the Spitfire, as we know and it was Lord Hives of RR who raised the question of putting the 60 Series Merlin into a Spitfire.
I highly doubt that such an important project would be placed solely under the guise of a satellite factory, particularly if it is to be upgraded and advanced beyond the early model. Again, what are resources not being devoted to if the Fw 187 is built? FW doen't have infinte manpower to just conjure an aeroplane and its subsequent development out of thin air.
Definitely, and as an interim measure, why not put the Merlin 45 into a Mk.II airframe sooner? The first flew in late 1940.
You're probably right that Merlin 60 was bench-tested in 1940. My idea, and I still think it has merit, is that Merlin 60 in service use during the BoB requires time travel, since not just a prototype engine is not fully tested & aproved, but historically RR was barely making enough of Merlin XXs in 1940 to cater both for Hurricane and Spitfire (thus Spitfire III is cancelled).
Late 1940 is too late for the BoB - Merlin 45 lags by some 6 months behind the Merlin XX.
If you consider that 75% of P-38 losses in the 1942 Aleutians campaign were weather / navigation related then clearly having a navigator in a long range twin is essential for at least the first half of WW2. So the single seat Fw 187 might only be useful in the BoB Summer 1940, unless anyone here can think of another theatre where long range navigation is easy enough for just the pilot to handle.
Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?
AS to the FW 187, you have several problems in 1940 (at least in fielding large numbers in the late summer of late 1940)
1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much.
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520).
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .
If the RAF are aware of teh Fw 187 in 1939, then perhaps they proceed with a Merlin X version of the Spitfire I.
In the Spitfire III the Merlin X gave a top speed of nearly 400mph, so a Spitfire I with the Merlin X should give performance superior to the Fw 187.
The Merlin X being available earlier than the XX, but with lower performance.
...
1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much.
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520).
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .
Care to shed some details about Merlin X/Spitfire III combo? I know that 'ordinary' Spitfire III (Merlin XX aboard) was good for some 400 mph unarmed.
Spitfire Mk.III
Engines:
Rolls-Royce Merlin X (RM.2SM). Electric starter. 1,265hp @ 9,500ft, 1,145hp @ 16,750ft.
Rolls-Royce Merlin XX (RM.3SM)/ Electric starter. 1,280hp @ 3,000rpm.
Rolls-Royce Merlin 61
Propeller:
Supermarine 3-blade C/S VP Jablo. Diameter 10ft 9in.
Coolant:
70% water, 30% glycol. 16.5gals. in system.
Fuel:
100 octane.
Capacity (fuselage) upper 53gals, lower 46.5, total 99.5.
Oil:
6.8gals. Consumption 1.75 to 2.5 gal/hr.
Armour:
Armament:
A and B wing or 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon and 4 x .303 Browning m/gs.
Cine Camera
Radio:
TR1133
Performance (Merlin X):
Max speed: 340mph @ 5,000ft, 360mph @ 10,000ft, 369mph @ 15,000ft, 400mph @ 21,000ft
Max dive: 450mph
Take-off run: 250yds
Climb to: 15,000ft 4.5 mins, 20,000ft 6.4mins
Service ceiling: 38,000ft
Stall: flaps and u/c up 93mph
Landing run: 600yds
From Morgan and Shacklady, Spitfire, the History, p132.
Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?
AS to the FW 187, you have several problems in 1940 (at least in fielding large numbers in the late summer of late 1940)
1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
What good made the spare drums to the Bf110 since it lacked the performance and agility to use them against the spitfire? Even after the Fw187 exhausted its 20 mm ammo still had 4 mg s on the cental axis. enough against a spitfire I.
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
If they escort the bombers,then the 187 s would be close enough to them to use the short range radio. Then the bombers can communicate with the base. In Frei Jagd mission they could penetrate as deep as the Bf109s but stay much longer if radio contact was the problem. But i believe you exaggerate the need to keep touch with base for the entire mission
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much.
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520).
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .
Me too. And look, it even fits in the Indefatigable class' low hangar.LOVE the Hornet! It is one seriously good-looking plane with a wonderful excess of power. Wish we had some around the warbird circuit today!
Personally i believe that with DB series of engines , as were fitted to the various Bf109 versions, would have some performance advantage ,even against the spitfire, at least until the series 60 merlins.
Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.
Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.
The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.Me too. And look, it even fits in the Indefatigable class' low hangar.
View attachment 559269
As for the Fw 187, I'd like to see it succeed in the CAS role rather than air to air combat. For that role you've got the Bf 109, Fw 190, Me 262, etc. But there's nothing like German IL-2.
The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.
I said air to air combat, with no mention of which is a fighter. But what's your issue with the Me 262?The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.
You said that you would like to see the Fw187 succeed in the CAS rile rather than air to air combat (aka fighter) and continued on to say that the Bf109, Fw190 and Me262 were better suited for that role.I said air to air combat, with no mention of which is a fighter. But what's your issue with the Me 262?