Fw187 could have been German P-38?
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Wiki quotes 575-580 at 15k feet for the Whirlwind and 525-530 at 13.8k feet for the Fw 187. The Fw 187's Jumos developed their max power close to this alt, the Peregrine is somewhat difficult to classify. A 1942 fligh global article claims 885hp at 3k feet, Wiki 885hp at 10k feet.
Both empty weight and loaded weight seem to be similar for the two. The rather big wing of the Fw 187 may have an influence too.
Jumo 210G is quoted as having 730 PS but it should be in an altitude area similar to that of the earlier 210D. AFAIR the supercharger was not changed apart from minor tunings.
Both empty weight and loaded weight seem to be similar for the two. The rather big wing of the Fw 187 may have an influence too.
Jumo 210G is quoted as having 730 PS but it should be in an altitude area similar to that of the earlier 210D. AFAIR the supercharger was not changed apart from minor tunings.
Last edited:
For Peregrine, it would be 885 HP at 15000 ft, using 3000 rpm and 6.75 psi boost. Kindly provided by our forum member:
The Fw-187 was rather fast for the HP installed - above 10000 ft, both Spitfire and Hurricane have had about the same power, while being smaller and without engines on the wings.
The Fw-187 was rather fast for the HP installed - above 10000 ft, both Spitfire and Hurricane have had about the same power, while being smaller and without engines on the wings.
Found aircraft profile 191 book which states Whirlwind speeds at light load (I assume fighter load at ~10,500 lbs):
315 mph at 5k, 335 at 10k, 360 at 15k and 350 at 20k.
So Whirly had much better alt performace. But I'm still unsure how much alt performance was gained in the Jumo 210G vs the Jumo 210D. Plus how much power is gained from rammed air.
If the Fw 187 speed was real then it must have been an aerodynamically very efficient aircraft and/or the Jumo 210G is much better at height than the 210D.
315 mph at 5k, 335 at 10k, 360 at 15k and 350 at 20k.
So Whirly had much better alt performace. But I'm still unsure how much alt performance was gained in the Jumo 210G vs the Jumo 210D. Plus how much power is gained from rammed air.
If the Fw 187 speed was real then it must have been an aerodynamically very efficient aircraft and/or the Jumo 210G is much better at height than the 210D.
The Fw 187 sported the one-per-cylinder layout of exhaust stacks, those should offer a bit better percentage of exhaust thrust per HP/speed/altitude than the 'masked' exhaust of the Whirly (that have had better HP, especialy at altitude). The Whirly would've gained extra MPH with same type of exhausts, even just discarding the 'masks'?
Of course, the power graph for the 210G would be appreciated. The von Ghersdorf et al state that 210G was making 670 PS at 3800 m (Kampfleistung, 2600 rpm), that is a substantial gain vs. the 210 D/E. Same source gives 730 PS for take off power (2700 rpm, 1.27 ata). In light of this, the speed of ~530 km/h for the Fw 187 looks plausible.
Of course, the power graph for the 210G would be appreciated. The von Ghersdorf et al state that 210G was making 670 PS at 3800 m (Kampfleistung, 2600 rpm), that is a substantial gain vs. the 210 D/E. Same source gives 730 PS for take off power (2700 rpm, 1.27 ata). In light of this, the speed of ~530 km/h for the Fw 187 looks plausible.
wuzak
Captain
If you use the cube rule, giving the Fw 187 the same power will give it about the same speed as the Whirlwind.
Maybe - the Peregrine have had a greater FTH than the 210G, by some 700 m (more than 2000 ft), so it will be in advantage at higher altitudes. We also don't know how much the Peregrine was making at +12 psi boost, that will also make it faster at lower altitudes.
My favorite proposal - give it the Czech-produced HS 12Ycrs engines (~850 HP) and it is in the ballpark with 109E, if not with Whirly and Spit I/II. The 12Y engines were not that heavy as DB 601, that can be used on other aircraft.
My favorite proposal - give it the Czech-produced HS 12Ycrs engines (~850 HP) and it is in the ballpark with 109E, if not with Whirly and Spit I/II. The 12Y engines were not that heavy as DB 601, that can be used on other aircraft.
It''s been a while but in this thread it has been said that because of the Fw 187 is quite some years older than the DH Hornet it would be unlikely to have enough development potential to ever be theoretically able to achieve the latter's level of performance.
But consider that it is a plane made out of wood, at least partly. Before the Mosquito a wooden high performance airplane was almost unthinkable.
And why do you think that the P-38 could nor be in the same class as the Hornet? With similar dimensions and the engines it could be. Granted it was aerodynamically not as refined but neither was the Tigercat.
But consider that it is a plane made out of wood, at least partly. Before the Mosquito a wooden high performance airplane was almost unthinkable.
And why do you think that the P-38 could nor be in the same class as the Hornet? With similar dimensions and the engines it could be. Granted it was aerodynamically not as refined but neither was the Tigercat.
Shortround6
Major General
Not sure what you are getting at.
But a lot depends on how much you can modify something and still have it be what it started as, You could take part of the Fw 187 canopy and the throttle levers and build a new wing, new fuselage, new tail and fit it with new engines and landing gear and call it a FW 187, just "developed". But there is no possible way to estimate the possible performance of such a hypothetical aircraft.
For the P-38 to equal the Hornet it needs a new wing (to get away from the compressibility problems) and a new lower drag cooling system, and new, higher powered engines and new props to handle the higher power and probably a few things I left out. Is it still a P-38 or is it a P-49 or a P-XXX
But a lot depends on how much you can modify something and still have it be what it started as, You could take part of the Fw 187 canopy and the throttle levers and build a new wing, new fuselage, new tail and fit it with new engines and landing gear and call it a FW 187, just "developed". But there is no possible way to estimate the possible performance of such a hypothetical aircraft.
For the P-38 to equal the Hornet it needs a new wing (to get away from the compressibility problems) and a new lower drag cooling system, and new, higher powered engines and new props to handle the higher power and probably a few things I left out. Is it still a P-38 or is it a P-49 or a P-XXX
The YP-38 was tested with 20% longer chord wing inner section (that was suggested to house radiators, so that solves another problem) and more sloped windcreen a canopy alltogether. With other minor improvement, speed up to some 460 mph was judged possible by NACA.
link
Engine power increase was already happening.
Shortround. Yes. It would be hard to predict. But as most WW designs did show "stretch" in one way or the other, one might assume that such a "development" would have been feasible.
Last edited:
Kevin J
Banned
My preference is the Fw 187 built 1939 onwards in Bohemia using Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs. Should be good for 360 mph. Now that would have come as a nasty surprise to the RAF in the Battle of Britain. It would have allowed the Luftwaffe to escort their bombers effectively across the UK. I'm sure the Germans could even have persuaded the French to develop the 12Z during the war to keep the Fw 187 competitive. So big problems not only for Fighter but also Bomber Command.
In the immediate event of the aircraft going into service, but as I've said about the introduction of the Fw 187 in other threads, you can definitely count on the British to retaliate with quickness, as they did with the introduction of the Fw 190, if the Fw 187 is the threat you're perceiving it to be.
I would pick that immediately there would be panic in the Air Ministry that could possibly lead to a two-speed, two-stage Merlin being put into production and service in a fighter earlier than what it traditionally was. I doubt the Fw 187 would have been a match for a Spitfire Mk.IX, say.
The next thing is, if the Fw 187 is being manufactured, what that Focke Wulf has built in reality is not getting built? FW didn't have unlimited resources. The Fw 190? Or the Fw 189? Something has to give and if it's the Fw 190, the Germans are depriving themselves of quite possibly their best piston engined single engined aircraft of the war, bearing in mind its history and subsequent development.
Cause and effect. If you alter the timeline of one aircraft, that changes the timeline of those it interacts with.
Kevin J
Banned
Agreed, but Avia have the manufacturing facilities.
I also don't see much of a threat if LW fields, say, couple of hundreds of 360 mph Fw 187s.
1st - we don't know what actual range we get, nor we know how much of fuel it is carried (more powerful engines will get worse mileage), nor whether it is 'allowed' to carry drop tanks (and how much is it better vs. Bf 109E with drop tanks for the BoB).
2nd - a 360 mph LW fighter vs. 360 mph Spitfire and Whirlwind is no reason to panic.
3rd - Fw 187 is a much bigger aircraft than Bf 109, making it much easier to spot and hit. It will also cost about twice what 109 costs, and Germany was historically out-produced by UK during the crucial months of Summer of 1940.
So yes, my idea is still that Fw 187 + HS 12Y engine is a net gain for the LW, however it need to be produced in vast quantity early enough and has to feature drop tanks in order to actually defeat the RAF in 1940, with help of Bf 109 and bombers, and with proper strategy and logistics.
On the other hand, the AM cannont just pull the 2-stage 2-speed Merlin out of the hat in 1940, since there is no such thing even on the bench, unlike in 1942. What they can do is to push for Spitfire III, that should be making 390 mph armed.
Focke Wulf was making Bf 110s under licence. So have them not produce Bf 110s, that also frees up a lot of DB 601s.
Just Schmidt
Senior Airman
Without having read all of the old part of the thread, I think Tomo have a good point. Even at 360 mph it would still just be an airplane, not a revolution. Useful but not in itself decisive.
As the lightning was a excellent performer and didn't on its own destroy die Luftwaffe when it turned up in Europe, i actually find the comparizon between the two apt. probably the Fw 187 could have filled the same role, but a rather limited role compared to the versatility of Bf 110.
I always liked the Fw 187 but have sobered up on its unlimited potential over the years. Maybe too much is made dependent on how much better it would have been at one of the Bf 110's roles during the specific event the Battle of Britain. Even then, the latter might have done better if not hampered by unsound tactics, that goes for the bf 109 too. It's quite another matter whether BoB was winnable for Germany, I have no very firm opinion on that.
One thing I rarely, if ever, have seen commented on in the many Fw 187-related threads throughout the forum is one problems of improving/updating it (but I have not read through all of them). That is, specifically, the fact that some instrumentation was mounted on the inner engine nacelles, as there was not room in the cockpit, rather like the Hs 129. The extra crewman in the two-seater was placed behind the pilot, but where to put additional stuff demanded by upgrades and additional roles without enlarging the with of the fuselage, compromizing performance?
As said, a fine aircraft no doubt with much potential, but still 'only' an aircraft.
As the lightning was a excellent performer and didn't on its own destroy die Luftwaffe when it turned up in Europe, i actually find the comparizon between the two apt. probably the Fw 187 could have filled the same role, but a rather limited role compared to the versatility of Bf 110.
I always liked the Fw 187 but have sobered up on its unlimited potential over the years. Maybe too much is made dependent on how much better it would have been at one of the Bf 110's roles during the specific event the Battle of Britain. Even then, the latter might have done better if not hampered by unsound tactics, that goes for the bf 109 too. It's quite another matter whether BoB was winnable for Germany, I have no very firm opinion on that.
One thing I rarely, if ever, have seen commented on in the many Fw 187-related threads throughout the forum is one problems of improving/updating it (but I have not read through all of them). That is, specifically, the fact that some instrumentation was mounted on the inner engine nacelles, as there was not room in the cockpit, rather like the Hs 129. The extra crewman in the two-seater was placed behind the pilot, but where to put additional stuff demanded by upgrades and additional roles without enlarging the with of the fuselage, compromizing performance?
As said, a fine aircraft no doubt with much potential, but still 'only' an aircraft.
Actually Tomo, that's not true. The 60 Series Merlin was being bench tested in 1940 - remember it was first developed for high altitude variants of the Vickers Wellington, eventually being installed in the Wellington Mk.VI. The first Spitfire to fly fitted with a two-speed-two stage Merlin was Spit III N3297, which did so in September 1941, with a Merlin 61. My proposition, and it's likely this might have happened under the circumstances was that RR escalated development of the 60 series engine for fighters before considering it for bombers. I also didn't say it would be magiced out of thin air in 1940 - its development timeline meant that it was being worked on for high altitude bombers in 1940 - 1941. If impetus was given for it to be pressed for urgent fighter development, there's no reason why the first 60 Series Merlin engined Spitfires couldn't have been in service by late 41, given the time it took for the Spit Vs to be modified on the production line by fitting the 60 Series engine and their introduction into service in 1942.
Yes, you're right about tactics; it does depend on how the type was used in action, which would define what measures were to be taken against it, but my point is that to presume that if a qualitative advantage of any sort was being introduced on the front line, it would be folly to assume that the British would do nothing. The Fw 190's appearance spurred considerable development of the Spitfire, as we know and it was Lord Hives of RR who raised the question of putting the 60 Series Merlin into a Spitfire.
I highly doubt that such an important project would be placed solely under the guise of a satellite factory, particularly if it is to be upgraded and advanced beyond the early model. Again, what are resources not being devoted to if the Fw 187 is built? FW doen't have infinte manpower to just conjure an aeroplane and its subsequent development out of thin air.
wuzak
Captain
True, but they could bolt in the Merlin XX into a Spitfire I or II in late 1940, since they were in production.
And a Merlin XX/Spitfire would be superior to the 360mph Fw 187.
