Greg Spouts Off About P-38 Drop Tanks (4 Viewers)

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

So, ego? There was no need for him to fly. Probably not for the group commanders, either.
No idea about the personalities and biographies tend to either liking or disliking the subject. Troops usually prefer generals who lead from the front compared to those who lead from the rear. Colonels regularly flew.

Thanks for your info. Although I know little of what is written about Eaker in this context, can you say if the details are written about his position with Ultra in official histories?
Bearing in mind that such information was not in the public domain until many years after WW2, who do we rely upon for the details here?
No idea what the various intelligence official histories note on Eaker, if he was never Ultra cleared he would not feature very much. The details come from Ultra Goes to War by Ronald Lewin, written just after the secret was revealed, citing interviews with Eaker and Spaatz amongst others. Eaker gets a "generous assistance" mention as well. The Burke story from Combined Fleet Decoded by John Prados.

I remain sceptical that anyone could decline.
I would refer back to the way Ultra was new, sharing with the US even newer, the system was a work in progress and since the material was disguised so it could be passed to non cleared people as required that is what mattered more at the time.

What we're talking about here is a question of degree. Jeschonnek at one end and an American commander on the other end on a good day.
No we are not.

In message 247 is the idea Eaker had only had loss reports, along with "we know" about German pilot losses, incorrect claims about numbers lost to the 8th Air Force and total pilot supply, and asking what else could Eaker do.

In message 251 comes the idea Eaker could be commander or Ultra cleared, rather than could be commander as he saw his duties or Ultra cleared.

In message 252 we have bombing targets in fighter range will not achieve anything, without defining what that range was. Not even building experience and conserving 8th Air Force strength while awaiting fighters and drop tanks in numbers. Then instead of 8th Air Force it is now the USAAF "taking an unrecoverable toll on the Luftwaffe fighter force"

In message 255 comes claims people are using hindsight, claims better information was not available and announcing Eaker telling command the self defending bomber was not working, time to recast things, was not an option, only a binary choice was available. So we move onto the Luftwaffe Chief of Staff suicide and Eaker's state of mind. The data on Luftwaffe losses is ignored, no details on what the bombing achieved.

We can go on for hours about numbers and performance figures but a good half the story is the human one.
This comes across as ignore disagreeable data so original views can be maintained.

8th Air Force command knew it was taking unsustainable losses before it went on deep raids or reached the desired strength, even losses to French targets were consistently close to the danger level. It had the option of switching to fully escorted raids, recasting the target list. It is interesting the idea the raids should continue as the Luftwaffe was losing too much in the air combats with the USAAF heavies persists today. This ignores the losses needed to be large enough that Luftwaffe fighters would decline across the board and that was not showing up in the known deployments. It is further interesting no one picked the fatal flaw in the soft centre defence idea. If the raids were really going to do the expected levels of damage the Luftwaffe could and certainly would double or triple the fighter numbers based in Germany, being able to do so in days.

Up until 27 September 1943 the 8th Air Force was a clear weather operator and for months afterwards mostly clear weather given the lack of H2X sets. That imposed plenty of gaps between raids. Part of the hidden story of the Battle of Britain is the weather imposed rest days helping the defenders, by flying higher and going further the 8th reduced the number of bombing weather days compared with the 1940 Luftwaffe.
 
No idea what the various intelligence official histories note on Eaker, if he was never Ultra cleared he would not feature very much. The details come from Ultra Goes to War by Ronald Lewin, written just after the secret was revealed, citing interviews with Eaker and Spaatz amongst others. Eaker gets a "generous assistance" mention as well. The Burke story from Combined Fleet Decoded by John Prados.


I would refer back to the way Ultra was new, sharing with the US even newer, the system was a work in progress and since the material was disguised so it could be passed to non cleared people as required that is what mattered more at the time.

Thank you for the details here.
Overall, I am not able to contradict with better information. Nonetheless, I think that the vetting and security regulations for ULTRA would have been clear and established, as I have previously stated. Beyond the actual intelligence information, the greatest threat to the data source was the knowledge that it was sourced from decryption and here I feel that it is
beyond doubt that a situation as described was a serious security risk.

Cheers

Eng
 
(1) There was information coming out of France, Ultra helped tighten up the RAF claims system.

(2) The fantastic idea nearly the entire German encryption system had fatal weaknesses and much was being routinely read in close to real time?

(3) Apparently Harris was either never or only in 1945 indoctrinated to Ultra.
Apologies for isolating just three sentences from a much longer post but they are ones I have a bit of infomration on.

(1) There was a lot of information coming out of France that wasn't ULTRA, not least ground-to-air plain language exchanges between fighters and their controllers.
(2) In 1940 decrypts were normally about 24 hours in arrears. By summer 1944 it was down to a few hours. However, in every period I've looked at at you will get occasional batches of decrypts which had taken days or weeks to break into.
(3) A list of Air Ministry personnel 'in the know' was submitted to Churchill on 15 October 1940 and Dowding and Peirse (AOCs Fighter and Bomber Commands) weren't on it. Churchill responded next day: 'I should also add C. in C. Fighter and C. in C. Bomber Command, it being clearly understood that they shall not impart [the decrypts] to any person working under them or allow the boxes to be opened by anyone save themselves' (Source: National Archives HW 1/3794).

Sholto Douglas, Harris's predecessor as DCAS, was on the list and since Harris took over two weeks later, he probably was too. Douglas however was among those "not aware of the origin of the special material". I don't know what changes if any were made to AOC Bomber Command's access bwtween October 1940 and Harris's taking over but it certainly looks like he was seeing decrypts as DCAS.

Who got indoctrinated into ULTRA seems to have been a matter of the post they held. I can't speak for the 8th AF Generals but the following examples of USAAF officers in the Middle East in 1942 may shed some light:

(National Archives HW 20/471)
AWL 154, 29 June 1942
For AOC-in-C Middle East, personal from ACASI
Brereton may be informed subject acceptance following conditions laid down by Chiefs of Staff. Brereton will treat information as for his personal information only and will not repeat not inform even members of his own staff or authorities in USA. You should inform Brereton only American officer in USA aware of source is General Marshall.

AWL 256, 12 August 1942
To DAOC-in-C Cairo from ACASI
IMMEDIATE
Chiefs of Staff authorise Maxwell to be given special information on conditions laid down in AWL 154 provided that it is certain he will remain Middle East American Commabder in Chief.

(HW 20/489)
9 October 1942, from Tedder to Assistant Chief of Air Staff/I
I am in serious difficulty regarding information from most secret source as affecting operations by US heavy bombers. Brereton has been informed of this source, but planning for shipping strikes is more or less continuous and involves frequent discussions between my SASO and Brigadier Timberlake, bomber commander and Colonel Keyser his Chief of Staff … to avoid distrust and danger of unwitting betrayal of this source Brigadier Timberlake and Colonel Keyser should be informed. I feel we can trust them and I will explain to them personally the vital importance of the information …

(HW 20/472)
AWL 131, 14 October 1942
Air Marshal Tedder, personal from C-in-C
Persons given knowledge of ULTRA are in two categories. Firstly, those who know the complete story. Secondly, those who are told that we have an agent who is able periodically to send us by W/T the keys of enemy cyphers. This enables us to decode a number of messages, the results of which over a period give us a completely reliable picture … Timberlake and Keyser are second category.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back