G4m Betty Part Identification

[Konig]

Hi All,

Not sure if this is the correct place to post this request, but oh well...

After searching in vain trying to locate plans/drawing of the interior of the G4m Betty, I have not been able to identify this piece of wreckage known to be from a G4m Betty. It looks as though it's from a bulkhead in the fuselage somewhere but not sure where.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Unless you find some detailed drawings of the interior, it would be almost impossible to determine exactly where that piece came from.

Its funny, on most of that part it looks like half those rivets were "hand installed" and it also seems they used twice as many rivets as necessary.

 

[Konig]

Yeah,

Thanks for reply

I've watched some film of Japanese Bombers being assembled and I believe most of the rivets were put in by hand or be it with some sort of tool. I think it has more rivets than is required because it is a bulkhead of some type or supporting structure. Cut-aways of the Betty I have found show a lot of supporting structures used to hold up the flight deck/platform. So could be one of these... but as you say, without plans its very difficult to determine what part of the aircraft it is.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Usually you'll find that a great portion of an aircraft (and we'll speak in WW2 terms) is built in an assembly jig and the rivet pattern of the structure is pretty uniformed, you can usually see the difference between fasteners installed with tooling and those done by hand. Many times repairs or mods will have some sporadic rivet pattern locations and in may cases many extra rivets installed, this is usually done by inexperienced mod team who think "more is better." There is actually a standard formula to determine the right amount of rivets to be installed in a post production situation.

In looking at the lower portion of that part, I'm thinking it might have been subject to a mod or repair

 

[ppopsie]

I don't either have materials to determine the nature of the parts but the engine nacelles on the G4M aircraft has similarlly shaped cross sections. This could be upside down.
From a brief look over on the parts I too recognized the quality of riveting which is far from satisfactory. My guess are;
1) under a severe wartime pressure unskilled junior labor including school boys and girs were employed in the factory to build the airplanes, filling the vacancies created after skilled workers (above 20 YO) were drafted to the war fronts. It seemed there were no system of "reserved occupation" existed in Japan and the draft office had paid NO attention to preserving the skilled employee of the aircraft factories. The Army vacuumed all male person suitable to serve as per regulation very evenly no matter what he was a university professor or a last son from a poor peasant family. They were treated equally and very harshly without regarding one's previous job and/or ability was. The above was an well-cited example of the existence of the lack of co-ordination between any of the levels and offices and ministries including the service in wartime Japan.
2) or the parts was hastily repaired at "Koku-sho" an aircraft repair/maintenance station established at some of the front air bases, quite possibly under adverse working conditions.

Source; various academic books including "学歴・階級・軍隊" (Gakureki, Kaikyu, Gun-tai) Rieko Takada, Chuko-Shinsho, July 2008, "Aces, Erks and Backroom Boys" Edward Smithiies, Cassel, 2002 and "Zero-Sen" Horikoshi Okumiya, PHP, Dec. 2000 (a full version including appendix all in Japanese language).

 

[Konig]

Thanks for reply,

Upon closer inspection I would have to opt for your 1st point. This part is so heavy and substantial/integral to the aircraft's structure that I don't think it was repaired at any stage in its life. I'll have a closer look at the engine nacelle on the G4m and see if its part of that, although good pictures of this area of the aircraft appear to be in short supply. This particular aircraft was thought to have exploded in mid-air, at altitude, scattering pieces all over the place, hence why its difficult to identify what it is.

Thanks for your help and expertise.

 

[Shinpachi]

G4M Betty on Ballale island
'†U'̉ïƒz[ƒ€ƒy[ƒW

 

[Shinpachi]

This was a captured G4M model 11 on Saipan

.
Photo: Bunrindo "Famous Airplanes of the World No.59"

 

[ppopsie]

Could the size of the part be measured? The said engine nacelle has the maximum crosswise dimension same with or a little over the outer diameter of the Mitsubishi Kasei series engine which is known. If the projected diameter of the curved/round portion exceeds the above by a good margin, it can be deduced this was from other part of the aircraft.

Also, if the shape of the curved portion constitutes a part of a true round/circle, it is likely that this is from the part of the engine nacelle or the fuselage near to the both front and rear ends. If it is not i.e. a part of a large oval circle, this can be from the fuselage. Sections in the middle of the fuselage of the Rikko were mostly in oval (elongated cirrcle).

As from the appearance this is not a simple former but a stress carrying bulkhead having some important structural parts been fitted. Candidates are; the landing gear, the engine mount, the wing, the tail gear or the tail planes.

I would like to point out the suppositions above can be applied to the other types of the aircraft as well.

 

[ppopsie]

I realized just an hour ago that a plastic kit of G4M Type1 Rikko can be used for the discussion.

 

[Konig]

Thanks for the two responses, and pictures.

After inspecting it closer and looking at the pictures, the shape of this item cannot part of the engine nacelle because of its shape. I'd agree that it is a stress carrying bulkhead but the more I look at it the more I am convinced its part a fuselage bulkhead because it almost matches the shape of the G4m fuselage. Have a look at this CG reproduction I found online. I really can see the similarities in this piece and bulkhead illustrated.

http://battlesub.hp.infoseek.co.jp/images/G4M222/31Li.jpg

What do you think?

 

[Konig]

Wow,

Your on the case.

You were putting this together while I was posting other reply.... Yeah I reckon your onto something there....with the wing bulkhead...