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Accuracy, Dare I say it? is dismal. Especially at the longer ranges. US 4.2s were better, post-war French 120s were pretty good.
WW II Mortar accuracy was never good, some was worse than others.
An awful lot depends on the weight of the weapon (I am using weapon to try to keep from confusing howitzers, guns and gun/howitzers) because the difference between different weapons also depended on tow vehicles. And tow vehicles changed considerably from the early 30s to 1943-44.
The US had several years to figure some of this stuff out and started using things like the M1 heavy tractor.
View attachment 797536
80hp diesel and top speed of 11mph (18kph) but it was faster than using horses.
BTW the Soviets got about 1000 of these plus other to supplement their own tractor production. This helps explain how the Soviets moved their heavy weapons around.
By 'losing' I've meant that 130mm was the preferred new long-range gun.
5 different propellant charges were available. Smallest was 3.98 kg (MV of 525 m/s), while full charge weighted 12.9 kg (MV of 930 m/s). See here (easy to translate).
Agreed.That lot of German army, that depended on horses, will not be getting the K4.
Czech guns (K4 in this case) not just looked better, they were longer-ranged with same weight of the shell and same weight of the firing position vs. the German 15 sfh.
No, but what you are proposing is somewhere around 1/2 way between the British 25pdr and the D-44. The Russian D-44 is rather light for what it does.Is there anywhere in this thread me claiming that Germans should've made an equivalent of the D-44 in the 1930s instead of their historical howitzers
I was actually referring to a 12.2cm shell, sorry I wasn't clearer on that. So about a 22kg shell vs the 43kg shell, close enough.K44/pak44 fired a 28 kg HE shell, vs. the 43 kg shell that 15cm guns fired. That is about 64% the shell weight, not the 1/2 shell weight.
Okay, roger that.I was actually referring to a 12.2cm shell, sorry I wasn't clearer on that. So about a 22kg shell vs the 43kg shell, close enough.
For the Germans working in 1942-43-44 they were using the shells they had available which were intended for high velocity and they didn't have the best amount of HE content for a lower performing weapon. The 26kg AA shell held about 3.4kg which is about the same as the the Soviet 12.2cm Howitzer shell. The ex-navy 28 kg shell held a bit less, sources differ but max out at 1.75kg (???). Nammo Raufoss produced some Anti ship shells in 1989 that held 3.2kg of HE. WW II data is incorrect or badly translated or???
A WW II purpose built shell for a 700m/s velocity could obviously hold more than the German high velocity shells.
The 1960s 12.2cm Soviet D-30 howitzer fires 21.76kg projectiles holding 3.675 kg-4.05kg of HE depending on type.
The 13cm M-46 cannon fires 33.4kg projectiles that hold 3.64-4.17kg of HE (?).
.. ie. artillery pieces that have the barrel length of some 30-35 calibers. Granted, this is a bit longer barrel than on the pieces that can be called like that. like the Soviet ML20, or the British 25 pdr, but bear with me for the duration of this thread. Artillery 'niches' are of 88 mm, 105 mm, 127/128mm, 150mm, and 170mm, with MV of some 650-700 m/s maximum. Max elevation is still above 45 degrees.
The 'no free lunch' rule will be evident - for the same weight vs. the howitzers, shell weight is going to be lighter, but the range will be longer, and so will be the ability to hit the moving targets that come in close, talk to about 1000m. Lets stipulate that Heer has no problems in specifying the 88 gun-howitzer as the backbone of their artillery park instead of the 105 mm howitzer (this is the hardest part probably, since the 105m shell was at least 50% heavier, even if that howitzer was short - if not very short - ranged). Or, go with 105mm gun-how for the motorized or mechanized divisions, and 88mm for the non-motorized units?
The dedicated guns are still being made, like the AT guns, or the long-range guns. They look at piggy-backing on the KM and LW guns for the long-barreled pieces, in order to save time and coin.
Will the Heer artillery park will be better off, or worse off?
...but much better accuracy. For some reason, the Soviets after the war decided to develop _ALL_ their rocket artillery according to the German scheme (spin-stabilization using inclined nozzles) despite of better range using the improved aerodynamically stabilized rockets. And only later they began to use slow rotation only to compensate the thrust asymmetry (also a German idea implemented in the Taifun AA-rocket - the father of the famous Soviet "Grad").The rockets had truly miserable range.
The M-30 of 1942 had just 2.8km range
TS-16 blunt head HE | 2.5 km |
TS-20 sharped head HE | 2.8 km |
TS-18 incendiary | 3.5 km |
Idea is that shell weight is less of a priority, while range gets higher priority. Since the 'no free lunch' rule applies as ever, the weight remains in the ballpark, ie. 2000-2500 kg for an 88m gun-how, and 5000-6000 kg for a '5 in' gun-how, with respective max ranges of perhaps 13 and 16 km (that is with normal ammo that can be expected to be available in the 2nd part of the 1930s).Hardly perfect, but easier to move about by something Jeep sized. Idea is for very mobile guns, correct?
Since more weight is allowed, then I would look to a slightly changed Italian interwar 102mm/L45 naval gun round, with a new tube and split trail mount.Idea is that shell weight is less of a priority, while range gets higher priority. Since the 'no free lunch' rule applies as ever, the weight remains in the ballpark, ie. 2000-2500 kg for an 88m gun-how, and 5000-6000 kg for a '5 in' gun-how, with respective max ranges of perhaps 13 and 16 km (that is with normal ammo that can be expected to be available in the 2nd part of the 1930s).
case length, mm, (remark) | max propellant weight, g | max shell/proj. weight, kg |
390.1 old (Kriegsmarine) | 1410 | 10 |
390.1 new (Kriegsmarine) | 2000 | 9.5 |
570.6 (Kriegsmarine 88, including their Flak) | 2900 | 10.2 |
570 (LW Flak 18 & 36) | 2950 | 10.2 |
570 (Tiger I) | 2950 | 10.2 |
822.1 (Tiger II) | 6800 (!!) | 10.2 |
855.1 (Flak 41) | 6055 | 9.4 |
879.6 (Kriegsmarine) | 2700 | 9.4 |
British barrel is about 27 calibers in length?
Now the question/s are how much the Germans want to pay for greater capability, either range or anti-tank.
Barrel weight for a 1930s gun is significantly lighter than for old WW I (and before guns) but going to a 35 caliber length barrel might mean another 200lbs more barrel weight?
The German 8.8cm Flak 18/36 shell held 0.87kg of HE. which is significantly better than the British 25pdr, but is about 2/3rs the HE weight of the German 10.5ch how.
Perhaps the Germans could have bored out the shell body of the 8.8cm shell and made the walls thinner and put more HE inside?
Not something you want to do with 800m/s shells. Where is the crossover point?
Are you sacrificing some other capability of the 10.5cm? or getting by with less "performance" from Smoke shells or illuminating projectiles. The Germans had gone to Shaped charge AT shells fairly soon for the 10.5cm howitzers and the 2nd model (out of 4) could penetrate about 100mms of armor or 70mm at 30 degrees. Granted they were close range shells.
With shaped charge projectiles the penetration was strongly linked to the diameter of warhead. Unfortunately spin degraded performance quite a bit.
Yes the 600m/s will give a better chance of hit but may mean a 660 meter range or bit beyond vs 520 meters.The 88mm HEAT shell was supposed to pierce 90mm, per this web site. I assume at 90 deg meet angle.
600 m/s MV should be giving better chance to hit than the 470? m/s MV of the 10.5cm lefh 18.
I know. There seems to be real velocity gap between most (but not all) howitzers of around 500m/s and cannon of around 700-800ms. 700 m/s is a real bare spot.You do know that I'm not championing the 800 m/s HE performance here.
IN 1935-36-37 the Germans could have made better choices, one of them should have been build 47-50mm AT guns instead of 37mm so the Divisional artillery had to save the day so many times when the 37mm's didn't work.
The AT shells in the artillery branch should be a 'self defense tool' - to be used so the enemy tanks cannot overrun the artillery positions should the dedicated AT means fail. OTOH, hitting the 90% of the tanks used in the early ww2 with the HE shells was not putting the smiling faces on the tanks' crews either - again, the gun-how stands better a chances to hit the moving target than a howitzer here.Yes the 600m/s will give a better chance of hit but may mean a 660 meter range or bit beyond vs 520 meters.
If your divisional artillery is using AT shells smelly things have already hit the fan.
N 1935-36-37 the Germans could have made better choices, one of them should have been build 47-50mm AT guns instead of 37mm so the Divisional artillery had to save the day so many times when the 37mm's didn't work.
I don't know. Pre war the 37mm/2pdr seems to have been perfectly adequate for AT use. The 5cm PAK was more than twice as heavy as the 37mm one. Of course pretty soon tanks had enough armor that the 5cm PAK wasn't enough either.