German commando attack on the US, Canada Alaska (1 Viewer)

[Soren]

Do you think an U-Boot is going to pull right up to the dock in Anchorage, and the men are just going to get off and walk onto the dock followed by the cheers of the liberated Anchoraginians?

I think I made it quite clear, nearly ten times, that they would get out of the Uboat and into rubber rafts a kilometer or so from the shore and some 10 km from the target area.

The way I understand Freebird'a idea they would board a foreign cargo ship disguised obviously, with spanish crates filled with their equipment and then just drive it off the ship in what'ever port was the goal.

 

[Soren]

I would think the best cover would be of a Russian or Norwiegan whaling ship, putting into Alaska for supplies. Some old fishing boat aquired in Mexico or South America could be disguised as a whaling sloop. {Russia has ships in the Bering Sea, Norway had ships operating in the Antarctic, until the raiders showed up there}

Roger that, but the question is how do you land the men then ? As I understood it you wanted them to land in the harbour itself, which I find extremely problematic.

 

[Freebird]

Freebird
Quote: "The Allies also knew to some extent about the "Synarchist" movement, but there is less danger of Enigma decoding because they would not be sending "black ops" instructions to the machine in the Mexico city embassy, these orders would all be given by hand to the operatives."

Bit farfetshed, Germans had almost absolute trust on Enigma, so they would have used it. On the other hand I cannot recall the system Abwehr used, so I cannot state that as a fact and anyway not all Enigma systems were solved in late 41. So IMHO right thing to do is to assume that Germans used their normal system for sending black ops instructions.

Juha

The Germans never used Enigma for Commando/Black ops contack {AFAIK}, for the obvious reason of the danger of the machine being captured in the field. It was used to contact Generals in Army HQ {Europe}, U-Boats, and Embassies. Even if it was considered 100% secure, it was not used to send info to "Black Ops" teams, because of the danger of the messages being read by staff at the embassy, and also the danger to the agents being identified if they show up at the embassy to get a message.

Another point to remember that in the fall of 1941 ONLY THE BRITISH have access to enigma data, and the US does not know how reliable this data is.

So assume that the message is given to the USA "Britain has passed along that the Nazi's are preparing plan XYZ in Latin America", would it be believed or acted upon?

1.) Some in the US suspect that the data may be fake or planted
2.) They may also suspect that the British are "crying wolf" to try to push the USA into the European war.
3.) There is so much intelligence data that comes in, it was often overlooked, so even if it was believed, it may not have made any difference.
4.) The British were also deliberatly vague about their intel before the US got into the war, as they didn't want to let anyone know how much they knew

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Errr Adler, IIRC the plan was to board an Allied cargo ship with some crates labelled with all kinds of spanish sh*t containing the equipment, and then when Anchorage was reached they'd drive it off the boat. I see problems there.

Why would they get on an allied cargo ship? Why cant they get on a ship from Argentina or how about this...

I know this is a revolutionary idea! They get on a German ship that is named something else and flagged from a different country....

As to your plan, are you proposing a German cargo ship on its own travelling the northen route to drop off the commandos just outside Anchorage ??

Not necessarily. I dont think I would go the northern rought. I would go through less hospitable waters to the south.

A. There is no need to go through the northern passage. You are making it more difficult than it needs to be.

B. Why Alaska? As others have put out, there is no need or reason to go there (except that it is the most beautiful place on earth!)

C. They would never acomplish a mission in Alaska, no matter how much you think the uber troops would.

D. The mission would be pointless as I pointed out above.

All in all this discussion is rather pointless...

 

[Soren]

Soren
to my knowledge U-boats never went through Vilkitsky, even when they were ordered to do so, in 44. Sept. was probably best time to try in that year or KM was incompetent.
And the more eastern area between New Siberian Is and Wrangler Is was worst stretch in 40 for Komet IIRC. 1942 it was area around Cape Chelyuskin that was worst ice-wise.

So to my understanding no U-boat ever got into Laptev Sea, correct me if I'm wrong. To get at one end of icebound straight isn't same than be able to travel through it. For example if one gets to Harmaja (lighthouse and pilot station off Helsinki) in normal winter doesn't mean that one necessarily is able to sail to Helsinki without help.

Juha

Juha I don't think you quite understand;

The German Uboats U-302, U-354 U-711 trailed a Soviet convoy straight into the middle of the Vilkitsky strait, attacked and sunk two ships. If it was possible to actually engage in battle right smack in the middle of the Vilkitsky strait then you can be sure they could slip right under the ice and into the Laptev sea if necessary.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think I made it quite clear, nearly ten times, that they would get out of the Uboat and into rubber rafts a kilometer or so from the shore and some 10 km from the target area.

They can do that with a ship as well, which would be much better for the crew and troops.

The way I understand Freebird'a idea they would board a foreign cargo ship disguised obviously, with spanish crates filled with their equipment and then just drive it off the ship in what'ever port was the goal.

Could possibly work as well.

 

[Freebird]

Roger that, but the question is how do you land the men then ? As I understood it you wanted them to land in the harbour itself, which I find extremely problematic.

There are many small fishing ports/fishing villages etc close to Anchorage, it would not seem out of place for a whaling/fishing ship to land to get supplies. Your team could probably walk right off the dock in the middle of the night carring their gear. There would be no "passport customs control" or any guards at all in the minor ports, once the ship had landed. i would assume that you would do this in 1941 though, not mid '42.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Roger that, but the question is how do you land the men then ? As I understood it you wanted them to land in the harbour itself, which I find extremely problematic.

They can get into rubber rafts just like from the U-Boot...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There are many small fishing ports/fishing villages etc close to Anchorage, it would not seem out of place for a whaling/fishing ship to land to get supplies. Your team could probably walk right off the dock in the middle of the night carring their gear. There would be no "passport customs control" or any guards at all in the minor ports, once the ship had landed. i would assume that you would do this in 1941 though, not mid '42.

Ditto...

 

[Soren]

Why would they get on an allied cargo ship? Why cant they get on a ship from Argentina or how about this...

I know this is a revolutionary idea! They get on a German ship that is named something else and flagged from a different country....

Hey I was no fonder of the idea! I'm just telling you what I thought he was proposing!

Not necessarily. I dont think I would go the northern rought. I would go through less hospitable waters to the south.

A. There is no need to go through the northern passage. You are making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Wrong. Taking the Northern ruote would cut A LOT of distance time off the trip.

B. Why Alaska? As others have put out, there is no need or reason to go there (except that it is the most beautiful place on earth!)

Remember it would be done at the same time as the attacks in the US Canada to achieve as big a terrorfying effect as possible, letting the US public know that you can strike at them everywhere any time if you wish. Defeating your enemy phsycologically has its benefits.

C. They would never acomplish a mission in Alaska, no matter how much you think the uber troops would.

Spare me the patronising and snide remarks plz. I guess all of us operating for a over a month in Norway during the winter should all have perished and never achieved a single of our objectives according to you Adler ?? You mock us.

D. The mission would be pointless as I pointed out above.

All in all this discussion is rather pointless...

Then leave it be Adler.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wrong. Taking the Northern ruote would cut A LOT of distance time off the trip.

If you can get through it...

In the end an U-Boot is still the worst idea.

Remember it would be done at the same time as the attacks in the US Canada to achieve as big a terrorfying effect as possible, letting the US public know that you can strike at them everywhere any time if you wish. Defeating your enemy phsycologically has its benefits.

And Alaska would still be pointless.

A. There are no targets to cause terror with.

B. The population is so small in an area larger than most of Europe. The entire population of Alaska in 1942 was only 72,500 people in such a larger area. Many of the people lived in remote areas and would never even know the Germans had landed in Alaska and most of the US population would never ever find out either because communications sucked in Alaska back then.

C. There are much better targets that are easier to get to on the main US continent.

D. Again you are making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Spare me the patronising and snide remarks plz. I guess all of us operating for a over a month in Norway during the winter should all have perished and never achieved a single of our objectives according to you Adler ?? You mock us.

Patronizing? Snide Remarks?

I was trying to make my posts a bit humorous. You need to lighten up a bit!

No Soren but I think you underestimate the Alaskan climate. I have been to both Norway (training for a month) and been to Alaska. Both in the winter time. I would rather be in Norway anyday...

And to be honest, it was not my intent to mock anyone. If you feel mocked though, then you get a taste of what alot of your posts seems like.

Don't forget Soren, you are not the only one who apparantly has served and done something, and been around the world and done this and done that...

Then leave it be Adler.

No I dont think so...

Soren, I am always here lurking. When I feel like posting something, I will!

 

[pbfoot]

There are many small fishing ports/fishing villages etc close to Anchorage, it would not seem out of place for a whaling/fishing ship to land to get supplies. Your team could probably walk right off the dock in the middle of the night carring their gear. There would be no "passport customs control" or any guards at all in the minor ports, once the ship had landed. i would assume that you would do this in 1941 though, not mid '42.

I believe that Alaska was run by the military or it was a military zone

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It is true that there were a lot of military in Alaska during that time, but I believe the military build up did not start until WW2 because it was easy way to get supplies to Russia through the Alaska-Canada Highway.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Soren]

Adler let me tell you how I took it as you mocking us:

You claim that "My Uber soldiers" wouldn't achieve a single mission in Alaska. "Uber soldiers" Adler ??

Adler have you ever heard of the Sirius patrol team in Greenland ? I have aquaintences who have been there and they operate(d) for months far away from any civilization in Greenland, which mind you is a heck of a lot rougher than Alaska to survive in. (An interesting OT note; Their main weapons are K98k's rechambered in 7.62NATO)

So by claiming that commandos (My Über commandos just as the cherry on top) haven't got a chance to achieve a single mission in Alaska is mocking. Ok you didn't mean to mock, fair enough, I'm also only telling you this cause I found it strange for you to claim such stuff in light off what I know has been and is being achieved by the former and todays spec ops members.

Oh and when I say "Then leave it be" I mean: If you don't wish to participate, cause you have every right to do so, then why bother ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler let me tell you how I took it as you mocking us:

You claim that "My Uber soldiers" wouldn't achieve a single mission in Alaska. "Uber soldiers" Adler ??

Did I say your Uber soldiers Soren? Go back and read the damn post. I said the Uber Soldiers.

Dont take everything so personal. You are not as important as you think you are...(NOTE TO SOREN, I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE NOT AN IMPORTANT PERSON. EVERYONE HERE IS AN IMPORTANT PERSON. I AM JUST IMPLYING THAT YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE EVERYTHING SO PERSONAL )

Adler have you ever heard of the Sirius patrol team in Greenland ? I have aquaintences who have been there and they operate(d) for months far away from any civilization in Greenland, which mind you is a heck of a lot rougher than Alaska to survive in. (An interesting OT note; Their main weapons are K98k's rechambered in 7.62NATO)

No but I can not imagine that it is more difficult to survive in than Alaska. Probably about the same, but not more difficult.

I have aquaintances that were stationed in Greenland and USAAF bases there and they have nothing but good thoughts about Greenland. A bit barren but nothing out of the ordinary for a northen land.

So by claiming that commandos (My Über commandos just as the cherry on top) haven't got a chance to achieve a single mission in Alaska is mocking. Ok you didn't mean to mock, fair enough, I'm also only telling you this cause I found it strange for you to claim such stuff in light off what I know has been and is being achieved by the former and todays spec ops members.

The differene Soren, is that for all we know you are some guy sitting behind a computer with no experience (I believe you served, and I will never take that away from you), but you make a lot of claims with out explaining anything...

As far as we know, they are nothing more than claims.

Oh and when I say "Then leave it be" I mean: If you don't wish to participate, cause you have every right to do so, then why bother ?

No because someone has to keep you in check...

 

[Glider]

That's funny considering what is written about it Glider. The German Uboats apparently DID operate UNDER the ice and enjoyed considerable success.

What success Soren? It wasn't me that ordered the U boats to stop operating in that area, it was Donitz.

Happy to be proved wrong but I can say that U711 achieved nothing in that area.

 

[Juha]

Soren
Quote: "The German Uboats U-302, U-354 U-711 trailed a Soviet convoy straight into the middle of the Vilkitsky strait, attacked and sunk two ships. If it was possible to actually engage in battle right smack in the middle of the Vilkitsky strait then you can be sure they could slip right under the ice and into the Laptev sea if necessary."

Now once again you imagination ruins your ability to understand the text you read.

Now from Rohwer's Axis Submarine Successes 1939-1945 the sinking by U-302 was 75.37 N / 89.10 E and that of U 354 75.15 N / 84.30 E and the Vilkitsky strait is past 100 E. If these numerical expressions are too much to you, please go to U-boat.net they have red spots marked on maps where the sinkings happened and they are way west of what you claim!!

So please. Next time read texts carefully and try to understand them before making wrong claims. So you don't waste others time and also you give more adult impression on yourself.

Juha

 

[Soren]

I'm not taking it personal at all Adler, seriously I could care less, I'm just telling you that Alaska aint that rough and that it sounds odd for you to say "They wouldn't achieve a single mission in Alaska" when I know what spec ops members have achieved and are required to achieve.

And so I brought forward the Sirius Patrol Team, which use dog sleds and roam across greenland's large stretches of ice (The guys from the US ober there are in the mild areas) which IS a harsher inviroment that Alaska with lower temperatures and much harsher weather in general.



Furthermore I don't see myself as important at all Adler, so your continious habbit accusing me of that is tiring to say the least. I don't accuse you of being an uptight bastard do I ?

Why come across harsh against me just because you disagree with what I say, why not just present a counter argument free of insults and the startingshot to a personal argument?


Ok so you don't question my service with the military, fine by me, I appreciate your trust, but truthfully it really matters little to me as like I've said I know what I've done and I don't need to prove anything to anyone. All I can do is share what I know and then present my arguments.


Now finally for what you said Adler:

no matter how much you think the uber troops would

Now are you honestly not implying that in YOUR opinion I think of the German commandos as "Über soldiers". Come on Adler, that really wasn't necessary and I'm quite sure it wasn't meant to make me laugh either, correct ??[/quote]

 

[Soren]

Soren
Quote: "The German Uboats U-302, U-354 U-711 trailed a Soviet convoy straight into the middle of the Vilkitsky strait, attacked and sunk two ships. If it was possible to actually engage in battle right smack in the middle of the Vilkitsky strait then you can be sure they could slip right under the ice and into the Laptev sea if necessary."

Now once again you imagination ruins your ability to understand the text you read.

Now from Rohwer's Axis Submarine Successes 1939-1945 the sinking by U-302 was 75.37 N / 89.10 E and that of U 354 75.15 N / 84.30 E and the Vilkitsky strait is past 100 E. If these numerical expressions are too much to you, please go to U-boat.net they have red spots marked on maps where the sinkings happened and they are way west of what you claim!!

So please. Next time read texts carefully and try to understand them before making wrong claims. So you don't waste others time and also you give more adult impression on yourself.

Juha

You're too funny Juha, you and your child condescending remarks, hahaha...

Ok Juha, what here is it I misunderstood, please I'd really like to know where I went from adult to, eeerrmm what was that ? Directly from the book "Unknown Waters"by Alfred S. McLaren:

"three Type VIIC U-boats, U-301 (Sickel), U-354 (Herbschleb), and U-711 (Lange) of Group Viking of the 13th U-boat Flotilla, based at Trondheim, Norway, on patrol in theKara Sea during late August 1943 trailed a Soviet convoy into the Vilkitsky Strait. U-301 and U-354 sub-sequently sank one ship each of the small convoy."

Are you just too adult to read and comprehend that it was U-301 and U-354 who sank one ship each in the Vilkitsky strait ?? Is that it ? You give me such good laughs Juha, you really do.

Btw, I've got some buddies of mine who'd like to know what body armour it was you Finnish draftees were wearing when you determined that it was perfectly safe to stand within 10m of a 5 kg HE shell going off - sounds incredible! We need that stuff!

 

[pbfoot]

I have to say this but Soren you don't have a clue about the Northern regions of N America have you ever been north of 60. I did a month TDY in Badafoss and another in Stavenger the climate is moderated by the Gulf Stream . I wasted to much luggage on Arctic gear as opposed to winter gear when I did the deployment to Badafoss