German guided bombs

[davebender]

A bit off topic but....
Warnepieces: Guided missiles - World War One style. Germany's Torpedo Gliders
The German Naval Air Service had an extensive program for development of wire guided glide torpedoes during WWI. The program began during October 1914 and conducted 75 test flights by the summer of 1917. Anton Flettner (i.e. helicopter designer) was involved in this program while working for Zeppelin.

 

[delcyros]

I was wondering how long it would take in this thread for someone to point on the ww1 vinatge wire guided bombs. These were to be dropped from larger platforms (Zeppelins, each carrying two and three respectively, put under navy command in 1918) than ww2 guided bombs but they were accepted for service in 1918.

 

[davebender]

It's my understanding the last Zeppelin bomber was intended to carry the new wire guided weapons. That's why it was so big.

Zeppelin-Staaken E-4/20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Erich]

much interest now in the Fritz and KG 100 due to the fact that the Romas remains have been found. the attacking force of III. gruppe were all 11 Do 217 K-2's

good reference and take your time reading ............. Warriors and Wizards

 

[davebender]

How deep is the water in that area?

 

[Milosh]

How deep is the water in that area?

Wiki
The sunken vessel was found in June 2012 by the underwater robot 'Pluto Palla,' designed by Italian engineer Guido Gay. It was discovered about 30 kilometers off the northern coast of Sardinia at a depth of around 1000 meters (3,300 ft).

 

[davebender]

I didn't realize the Med was that deep.

 

[Milosh]

I didn't realize the Med was that deep.

Average depth 1,500 m (4,900 ft)
Max depth 5,267 m (17,280 ft)

 

[bobbysocks]

i saw this as a documentry or a segement in one not too long ago. from what i remember 2 italian ships were going to surrender and the LW went out to sink them using these wire guided missles. the claim was one of the missles went downthe stack of the one ship and the second took damage but got away. they showed how they guided the bomb to the target...will see if i can find the eposide/show.

 

[davebender]

That's no more likely then a Japanese bomb going down the stack of U.S.S. Arizona but it seems to be a favorite statement of Allied press officers whenever a warship gets sunk by bombs.

 

[Erich]

stories come in mythical proportions sometimes. most likely the Roma when hit by two different Fritz-X's and the Italia heavily damaged by a Fritz-X hit. III./KG 100 "Wiking" was incredibly successful on the September 9th ? 43 date but I do wonder why other Italien ships were not attacked a dn not damged in the operation of the twso waves of the gruppe of Do 217K-2's.

on the first page there is a scan of an Hew 177 dropping a Fritz X probably on the course of some 60 degree plus angle

 

[davebender]

Maybe someone in the Luftwaffe had an attack of common sense.

Germany needed to defeat the Salerno invasion. That means sinking troop transports and Allied warships supporting the invasion with shore bombardment. The Luftwaffe didn't have many maritime attack aircraft and couldn't afford to waste them conducting attacks that contributed nothing to the German war effort.

 

[bobbysocks]

lol...i am just repeating what the documentry said....i am sure they would not embellish the truth...cough! cough! i will dig for that video.... i cant remember..did it have a camera in the nose. from the images the bomber looked through a small eye piece while using a joystick to guide it.

 

[Erich]

D ~ actually at least two flares were dropped as markers before the Fritz-X was dropped itself. as for few maritime craft yes almost nil on any LW fighter escorts, LW bomber units and recon had to fly solos and of course paid heavily in craft and lives. The Salerno like the Anzio operation was not fully contested with the LW and in fact it was more like spitting in the wind with few success either by conventional bombing or the newer deadly Fritz and Hs 293 missiles.

in reality the operation against the Italien fleet was not pursued in any depth the Italien fleet was in the bag easily enough had the LW craft been available and the attacks carried out with aggressiveness. you can easily imagine an almost Pearl Harbor like destructiveness happening there were no Allied escorts about and only Italien AA.

 

[Shortround6]

Maybe someone in the Luftwaffe had an attack of common sense.

Germany needed to defeat the Salerno invasion. That means sinking troop transports and Allied warships supporting the invasion with shore bombardment. The Luftwaffe didn't have many maritime attack aircraft and couldn't afford to waste them conducting attacks that contributed nothing to the German war effort.

Italian Battleships ( and Cruisers) were future shore bombardment ships.

According to Wiki (not the best source?) The German planes flew from the south of France. It is about 300 miles from the Strait of Bonifacio to Salerno. From one of the German bases it may have been a 1700-1800KM round trip to Salerno.

 

[Erich]

shortrounds what units is wiki providing from the LW with the France statements ?

II./KG 100 was based at : Istres

III./KG 100 was based at : Istres as well

 

[Shortround6]

Istres is 60KM north west of Marseille. That should be the south of France??

 

[davebender]

The future doesn't matter during an enemy amphibious invasion. You need to destroy the immediate threat. Ideally that means sinking troop transports before they get a chance to unload. Each AP sunk = one infantry battalion destroyed. Sink enough and the invasion lacks the strength to overpower the defenders. That's the grim calculus of war.

 

[Erich]

Shortrounds yes the mention repeatedly of KG 100's Dornier's flying in the are of Bay of Biscay so right on the monies .....

Dave the LW units taking part or lets say B. Jope in a secret meeting was told by the LW hierarchy to go after all Italien shipping just not the big boyz battleships, the fear as mentioned of the ships unscathed and then used as possible raiders/shore bombardments had the Lw general staff reeling where as you pointed out alal Lw units should of plummeted the areas of the landings at Salerno and Anzio and any other water to land assault gone in by the Allies. A huge missed opportunity.

 

[davebender]

Here's a bigger missed opportunity.

At least four He-111 Kampfgeschwader supported the German offensive at Kursk. That aircraft is marginal for CAS but it's an excellent torpedo bomber. Retrain the crews for maritime attack and throw them en mass against the Allied invasion of Sicily. APs (assault transports) and LSTs (Landing Ship Tank) are the only acceptable targets. Aircrew will specifically refrain from attacking warships.


Evening. 9 July 1943. Operation Husky Command Center. Malta.
"Eisenhower reviewed his options, lighting one damp cigarette from another. Staff officers calculated that if the invasion were postponed, two to three weeks would be needed to remount it. No doubt by then the enemy would be alert, and perhaps was already: the fighter control room inside the bastion reported a German reconnaissance plane near the fleet at 4:30 pm and another at 7:30."
Excerpt from "The Day of Battle" by Rick Atkinson.

About midnight. 10 July 1943. Gulf of Gela.
226 C-47s carrying U.S. 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment are fired upon by American troop transports and their naval escort. 23 aircraft are shot down before USN leaders regain control over AA gunners. As a result of this incident AA gunners are forbidden to shoot at aircraft until further notice.

About 0100. 10 July 1943. Gulf of Gela (Sicily).
Troop transports assigned to U.S. 7th Army anchor and begin to lower landing craft.

30 minutes later….
Four He-111 maritime attack Kampfgeschwader strike the anchored troop transports en mass using a combination of torpedoes and skip bombing. Thanks partly to confusion from firing on U.S. transport aircraft an hour earlier no AA guns open fire until the first assault transport blows up. U.S. 7th Army (Gen. Patton commanding) is destroyed before it can get ashore.