German 'jet program' - how to do it?

[33k in the air]

To my knowledge, the M 262 appeared only in limited numbers and thus had a limited impact. More Me 262 = more impact BUT also more effort on the allied side to counter it. Assuming allied jet development to be too far behind, at least for the moment, what could, excellent, piston-enginged fighters do against it? Could the speed advantage for example have been negated by the pistoners flying high and diving after the Me 262? My understanding is that while it was fast, it wasn't very maneuverable.

One of the countermeasures the Allies employed was to identify the airfields from which the Me 262 operated, and then have Allied fighters patrol near those airfields waiting for when the Me 262s came in to land to rearm and refuel, a time when the jets were very vulnerable as they were low and slow and unable to avoid an attack.

Another countermeasure is to blast every airfield operating the Me 262 with bombs — be they from heavy, medium, or fighter bombers — and repeat such attacks as often as necessary. The Allies had the advantage of overwhelming strength in the air, and thus the resources to spare to direct more bombing attacks against airfields.

 

[Acheron]

One of the countermeasures the Allies employed was to identify the airfields from which the Me 262 operated, and then have Allied fighters patrol near those airfields waiting for when the Me 262s came in to land to rearm and refuel, a time when the jets were very vulnerable as they were low and slow and unable to avoid an attack.

Read about that, though I understand the Luftwaffe countered by piston-engined fighetrs covering the jets and by deploying a sh...eer-load ot AAA around the airfields.

Another countermeasure is to blast every airfield operating the Me 262 with bombs — be they from heavy, medium, or fighter bombers — and repeat such attacks as often as necessary. The Allies had the advantage of overwhelming strength in the air, and thus the resources to spare to direct more bombing attacks against airfields.

While definitely something easily done later in the war, I believe this would not have been feasible earlier, when the Luftwaffe still packed a punch?

 

[33k in the air]

Read about that, though I understand the Luftwaffe countered by piston-engined fighetrs covering the jets and by deploying a sh...eer-load ot AAA around the airfields.

Which just goes to show that for every measure there is a countermeasure, and for every countermeasure a counter-countermeasure.

While definitely something easily done later in the war, I believe this would not have been feasible earlier, when the Luftwaffe still packed a punch?

It'd certainly have been more difficult in 1943 and early 1944 before the advent of large numbers of long-range fighter escorts, but Bomber Command certainly could have plastered the airfields at night (assuming you can override Harris' almost certain objections). Stepping up Intruder attacks against jet-operating German airfields would be another option.

 

[GrauGeist]

Keep in mind that if the German's jet program had an earlier start, than their transition to "nachtjäger" jets would have followed suit.

Such types like the Ar234B-2/N and Me262A-1a/U2 and Me262B-1a/U1 would have been on hand in greater numbers.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm wondering about the timeline. Weren't the 262s operational in '44, not '43?

 

[GrauGeist]

I'm wondering about the timeline. Weren't the 262s operational in '44, not '43?

Historically, July 1944.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Can we get a jet turbine into a Tiger?

 

[nuuumannn]

Can we get a jet turbine into a Tiger

Might work...

Tiger I i

 

[Admiral Beez]

Might work...

View attachment 655573Tiger I i

I was just joshing, but look here, GAS TURBINE JAGDTIGER - The Tiger Collection

 

[nuuumannn]

I was just joshing, but look here, GAS TURBINE JAGDTIGER - The Tiger Collection

Intriguing... I should have posted this picture instead.

Jagdtiger

 

[Admiral Beez]

Can you imagine the fuel consumption? If there's any German aero engine tech that could be applied to the Wehrmacht it's the Luftwaffe's two stroke, opposed-piston diesel engines, not jet turbines. What were they thinking putting jet engines into heavy tanks?

 

[GrauGeist]

What were they thinking putting jet engines into heavy tanks

Well...

 

[wuzak]

Can you imagine the fuel consumption? If there's any German aero engine tech that could be applied to the Wehrmacht it's the Luftwaffe's two stroke, opposed-piston diesel engines, not jet turbines. What were they thinking putting jet engines into heavy tanks?

I suppose the advantage for the Germans is that the gas turbine can take a wide variety of fuels, including Diesel fuel and petrol.

 

[Acheron]

Wasn't the fuel required by piston-engines then much more highly refined then what went into tank engines?

 

[GrauGeist]

Wasn't the fuel required by piston-engines then much more highly refined then what went into tank engines?

Gasoline (Petrol) is highly refined oil.

Kerosene (#2 and Pearl) and Diesel (all grades) are a basic refinement of oil.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Gasoline (Petrol) is highly refined oil. Kerosene (#2 and Pearl) and Diesel (all grades) are a basic refinement of oil.

I had a similar chat with my bike club, guys swearing that synthetic oil is better than petroleum-based oils. Better it may be, but it's still petroleum based, only a different level of refinement. To my mind marketing names like "synthetic" oil is a lie.

Back to the Germans and their jet program, they were the innovators of true non-petroleum synthetic fuels. Their Fischer - Tropsch Process is still in use today to produce synthetic liquid fuel from non-petroleum products. According to Wikipedia, the Me 262's "Fuel was usually J2 (derived from brown coal), with the option of diesel or a mixture of oil and high octane B4 aviation petrol."

If we want to improve the German jet program I think they need access to easier to refine kerosene-based fuels and of course high grade alloys for reliable turbine blades and other components. On the fuel, I've not read that the German synthetic fuel's performance was any worse than the British kerosene-based jet fuel, so I only mention this due to supply issues slowing down the jet program.

 

[Dimlee]

Can we get a jet turbine into a Tiger?

Not a Tiger, but...

 

[Admiral Beez]

Don't go to war, dominate the jet market...BE NICE TO EVERYONE!

Not quite, but is there any benefit with the Germans working with Italians, Japanese, Vichy, pre-war Soviets? Did the latter two have any jet program to speak of?

 

[GrauGeist]

Not quite, but is there any benefit with the Germans working with Italians, Japanese, Vichy, pre-war Soviets? Did the latter two have any jet program to speak of?

The Soviets didn't have much of a jet program, though they had been working with mixed power before Germany attacked them with the I-153DM.

The early years of the war shelved development and it wasn't until 1944 that they started working with the mixed power concept once again with the YaK-7PVRD, MiG-13 and Sukhoi Su-5.

They also had a rocket powered interceptor, the Bereznyak BI-1, but it never saw combat.

 

[GTX]

I was just joshing, but look here, GAS TURBINE JAGDTIGER - The Tiger Collection

Useful summary here:

German projects of tank gas turbine engines

Until a certain time, Hitler's Germany did not pay much attention to the projects of gas-turbine power plants for ground vehicles. So, in 1941, the first such unit for an experimental locomotive was assembled, but its tests were quickly turned due to

en.topwar.ru