German logistics, purchase programs and war booty, reality and alternatives 1935-43 (1 Viewer)

[Reluctant Poster]

In any calculation of consumption, it must be taken into account that the means of transport must be returned anyway. And since this is a What if section - I don't see that it is impossible to create an (almost) closed water-steam cycle, after all, some steam cars (passenger cars) did (unlike, for example, the Sentinel wagon) have such systems. That the water in these systems needs to be replenished, but not in quantities like the Sentinel wagon, where (if I'm not mistaken,I) all the steam (water) was consumed end expelled.

You need to add a condenser which is a bulky and heavy piece of equipment. This obviously reduces the payload. South African Railways did use condensers on some of their locomotives because of severe water supply issues.

South African Class 25 4-8-4 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The tender is much bigger than normal to accommodate the heat exchangers.
In any event Sentinel got around it by stopping for water every 30 miles.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skG-YYGwoFI#ddg-play
Might not be so easy to find unfrozen water in a Russian winter

 

[tomo pauk]

Good as the FN 13.2mm aircraft HMG was, it was also too big to fit in the cowling of the Bf 109. AFAIU that was one of the main motivations behind the MG 131; something compact enough to fit there. OTOH, since this is a what-if thread, they could have, in addition to all the other rather major modifications they made for the Bf 109F, also have made the cowling a bit longer in order to fit a bigger HMG.

How about this crazy idea: no cowl MGs at all once belt-fed cannons are in?

Returning back to the He112B:
It had comparable performance to the Bf109F, but greater range on internal fuel. Add drop tanks to extend that range and you'll have better bomber protection.

Is there some math around for this?

Might not be so easy to find unfrozen water in a Russian winter

For teh Germans, it was probably far easier to melt the ice in Russia than to find lakes of petrol or diesel fuel.

 

[z42]

How about this crazy idea: no cowl MGs at all once belt-fed cannons are in?

So how should the 109 be equipped then? Motor cannon + 2 FN HMG's in the wings outside the prop arc?

Alternatively, a longer cowling to fit the FN HMG's could also allow a bigger higher velocity 30mm motor cannon. Not the Mk 103, that is still too big and bulky, but something inbetween the OTL Mk 103 and 108. Say something with a MV of 700-750 m/s?

 

[tomo pauk]

So how should the 109 be equipped then? Motor cannon + 2 FN HMG's in the wings outside the prop arc?

That is one option. Another might've been 2x2 HMGs in the wings + the prop cannon.
My favorite, though, is one prop cannon + two in the wings. Leaving the HMGs for the bombers' defence.

Alternatively, a longer cowling to fit the FN HMG's could also allow a bigger higher velocity 30mm motor cannon. Not the Mk 103, that is still too big and bulky, but something inbetween the OTL Mk 103 and 108. Say something with a MV of 700-750 m/s?

The in-between 30mm cannon always gets my vote.

 

[Alexander severus]

I have read about the ARP( aereo radio pilotato) , a italian project as a kamikaze planes without waste human lives..there Is possibility of use radio command aircraft to hit oil fields of US?some italian aircraft had long range... more over, if the Plane could be sacrified,the range limiti Will be 6000 km or something like that to hit vital target as new York from europe or California from japan

 

[GrauGeist]

I have read about the ARP( aereo radio pilotato) , a italian project as a kamikaze planes without waste human lives..there Is possibility of use radio command aircraft to hit oil fields of US?some italian aircraft had long range... more over, if the Plane could be sacrified,the range limiti Will be 6000 km or something like that to hit vital target as new York from europe or California from japan

The ranges were to great to effectively attack U.S. oil fields.

The oilfields in Pennsylvania and Oklahoma were too far inland.
The oilfields in Texas and California would require getting past numerous Navy and Army bases.

The only oil fields that were least protected, would have been near Santa Barbara (Elwood) and a Japanese submarine did try to attack it, with no success.

 

[Alexander severus]

The ranges were to great to effectively attack U.S. oil fields.

The oilfields in Pennsylvania and Oklahoma were too far inland.
The oilfields in Texas and California would require getting past numerous Navy and Army bases.

The only oil fields that were least protected, would have been near Santa Barbara (Elwood) and a Japanese submarine did try to attack it, with no success.

And if the crew accept to be a suicide mission,basically not having a return fly,destroying both aircraft and crew?from europe/japan with 6/6500 km couldn't be reached?

 

[marathag]

..or at least had something with the range of B17 to destroy British aircraft industry in UK

Ju-89 or Do-19

But their proponent, Luftwaffe Chief of Staff, General Wever died in an accident, and his push for the Ural bomber program died with him, while Udet supported the tactical side of bombing, especially divebombers, and Albert Kesselring wanted more fighters.

Also didn't help that the performance of either of them was substandard for the time in 1936, partly from the low performance of the Bramo radials

The only Axis bomber close to the US Bombers at the start of the War in performance was the Piaggio P.108, and their radials were unreliable

 

[marathag]

Might not be so easy to find unfrozen water in a Russian winter

1950s Minnesota, that is even colder

Tanks were insulated, and had circulator pumps and steam heater for tanks that didn't have much use. The local well used to fill would be above freezing, that also helped.
Each tender needed over a thousand gallons

 

[GrauGeist]

Ju-89 or Do-19
View attachment 814140
View attachment 814139
But their proponent, Luftwaffe Chief of Staff, General Wever died in an accident, and his push for the Ural bomber program died with him, while Udet supported the tactical side of bombing, especially divebombers, and Albert Kesselring wanted more fighters.

Also didn't help that the performance of either of them was substandard for the time in 1936, partly from the low performance of the Bramo radials

The only Axis bomber close to the US Bombers at the start of the War in performance was the Piaggio P.108, and their radials were unreliable
View attachment 814141

There was also the Me264.

 

[GrauGeist]

And if the crew accept to be a suicide mission,basically not having a return fly,destroying both aircraft and crew?from europe/japan with 6/6500 km couldn't be reached?

No way the Japanese were going to have a machine that could fly from Japanese held territory to the west coast of North America.

Even the B-17 in Ferry mode was nearly out of gas on approach to Hawaii from California.

The Japanese did attack Oregon with an aircraft (E14Y) launched from a submarine (I-25) and planned on further attacks using the M6A1 Seiran launched from I-400 class submarines, but the war ended before they could carry out planned attacks.

 

[SaparotRob]

And if the crew accept to be a suicide mission,basically not having a return fly,destroying both aircraft and crew?from europe/japan with 6/6500 km couldn't be reached?

That might be an extravagant use of critical resources.