Getting P-40 into the air quickly

With the carriers missing my thought would have been #Then where are they? #

Oddly this is very close to Midway where they are attacking land targets with no knowledge of the carriers.

I could have thought this a trap and I'm walking straight into it.

Having caution in a commander is sometimes far better than having a lunatic.

For all his critics, he did nothing wrong at either Pearl or Midway.

Hey Ivan1GFP,

My understanding is that the Enterprise delivered 12 F4F-3 to Wake island on or about 2 December. She would have had no trouble carrying that many along with her normal air group. Exactly how many she carried in total (i.e. operational and spares) on 7 December I do not know, but she could carry a max of about 90 1941 size aircraft under normal conditions. Pre-war she would sail with as close to this number as the number of available aircraft allowed, which was usually between 80 and 90. However, any number above about 72-75 would usually be carried as spares, trussed up in the overhead area of the hangar deck. The spares were usually only partly assembled, and not operational in that it would take a day or so to assemble them and then do engine/propeller/fuel-oil-hydraulic-pneumatic/weapon systems/etc. checks to be sure they were ready to fly. The normal extra ready aircraft (i.e. operational in additional to the 4x 18-plane squadrons) would usually be an additional dive bomber/scout bomber for the CAG/strike leader to use, and possibly a couple of scout/reconnaissance/liaison aircraft (usually SOCs).

At 1700 on 7 December the Enterprise launched a strike of 6 F4F, 6 SBD, and 18 TBD. The strike was intended against suspected enemy ships (possibly including a carrier) at approximately 100 miles SE of Enterprise. Possibly this gives an idea of what Enterprise's CO felt safe in doing?

Also, there is the question of how many operational losses she had suffered between the time she left Pearl Harbor and 7 December (probably not many and possibly none, if you do not count the SBDs shot down by friendly fire during the attack). Yorktown for example, left Pearl Harbor before the Battle of the Coral Sea with 79 aircraft total, but had only 53 operational at the start of the battle, and launched only 37 for the strike

It had been considered pre-war that additional fighters would be desirable in many situations and tests were performed to see how many were practical. If I have the correct information they decided that a max of 9 additional fighters could be accommodated and operated. Early-war experience, however, showed that the operating 72-75 aircraft was pushing the limit, and in fact the COs of Enterprise and Hornet suggested that only about 66 aircraft could be used effectively in intense operations.

Here is a detailed list of all USN carriers in service, their airgroup composition and locations on the morning of 7 December.

bluejacket.com/ww2_12-07-41_carriers.html

ThomasP said:

Hey Ivan1GFP,

My understanding is that the Enterprise delivered 12 F4F-3 to Wake island on or about 2 December. She would have had no trouble carrying that many along with her normal air group. Exactly how many she carried in total (i.e. operational and spares) on 7 December I do not know, but she could carry a max of about 90 1941 size aircraft under normal conditions.

.....

It had been considered pre-war that additional fighters would be desirable in many situations and tests were performed to see how many were practical. If I have the correct information they decided that a max of 9 additional fighters could be accommodated and operated. Early-war experience, however, showed that the operating 72-75 aircraft was pushing the limit, and in fact the COs of Enterprise and Hornet suggested that only about 66 aircraft could be used effectively in intense operations.

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Hello ThomasP,

The additional F4F on board that were delivered to Wake Island are what I was getting at. I am assuming that they were being delivered with air crew and were operational. 72-75 is consistent with what I have seen listed for these ships. 66 as a practical limit surprises me a bit though it makes sense.

The maximum size of the air strike that could be launched was determined by the number of aircraft that were spotted on deck PLUS a certain number that could be brought up from the hangar deck while the others were being launched. The elevators could not replace aircraft on deck as quickly as they could be launched so at some point the wait for additional aircraft would have been too long.
I am not really sure what happened when the aircraft were recovered and re-spotted.
At one point, additional catapults were mounted on the hangar deck in an attempt to get more aircraft in the air more quickly (I believe it was in USS Ranger) but the cost in space (and probably in weight) was considered too high and the catapults were removed.

Thanks for the operational details.

- Ivan.

Hey GrauGeist,

Thanks for the link. I have been looking for the exact (or as close as is available to ) numbers and types of operational aircraft on the US carriers on 7 December off-and-on for years. The best I had been able to find was the nominal numbers and types assigned at the time. The Bluejacket site appears to show the numbers and types actually operational(?) on, or shortly before, 7 December.

Hey Ivan1GFP,

Thanks for the info. I do not know if you are interested in this info, but the following was the USN's ~official estimation (pre-war)* for the size of strike that could be launched in a single 'deck-load' or spot, this assumes all launching aircraft are spotted on deck at the start and use rolling take-off:

Lexington: 4x squadrons plus "a few"
Ranger: 3x squadrons
Yorktown: 3x squadrons
Wasp: 3x squadrons (considered to be absolute max and to take longer than ** Yorktown due to crowding)
Essex: 3.5x squadrons

*My edit for above: ". . . estimation (early-war) for the size of strike . . ." to ". . . estimation (pre-war) for the size of strike . . ."
**My edit for above: ". . . longer than Ranger and Yorktown . . ." to ". . . longer than Yorktown . . ."

ThomasP said:

Hey GrauGeist,

Thanks for the link. I have been looking for the exact (or as close as is available to ) numbers and types of operational aircraft on the US carriers on 7 December off-and-on for years. The best I had been able to find was the nominal numbers and types assigned at the time. The Bluejacket site appears to show the numbers and types actually operational(?) on, or shortly before, 7 December

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You're welcome.

Blue Jacket is a wealth of information and I'd rank them second only to the US Navy's history archive.

In regards to that list of carriers, it was their status and disposition on Sunday morning - so it's a reliable and quotable source.

Many carriers of the 1920s had multiple decks to launch aircraft. They went out of fad when aircraft became bigger and heavier.

ThomasP said:

Hey Ivan1GFP,

Thanks for the info. I do not know if you are interested in this info, but the following was the USN's ~official estimation (early-war) for the size of strike that could be launched in a single 'deck-load' or spot, this assumes all launching aircraft are spotted on deck at the start and use rolling take-off:

Lexington: 4x squadrons plus "a few"
Ranger: 3x squadrons
Yorktown: 3x squadrons
Wasp: 3x squadrons (considered to be absolute max and to take longer than Ranger and Yorktown due to crowding)
Essex: 3.5x squadrons

Click to expand...

Hello ThomasP,

Thanks for the information. The numbers surprise me a bit. I had heard that Ranger was really the problem child of the fleet but the numbers here don't seem to agree.

- Ivan.

The pilots of the 325th F.G. "Checkertails" in North Africa often removed one or two guns per wing to quicken their time getting to altitude to meet incoming German aircraft.

Hey Ivan1GFP,

Oops. Please see my edit above to my post#185.

The specs above were pre-war (early-1940) for Lexington, Ranger, and Yorktown. Wasp and Essex were not yet in service, so the 3.5x squadron launch for Essex was just an estimate, while the numbers for Wasp came from early-war.

Apparently, early-war it was considered that the Yorktown class could spot 2x squadrons plus a few, and had to bring up a few aircraft from the hangar deck while launch operations were going on in order to do a 3x squadron launch - Ranger and Wasp basically had to bring up an entire squadron to accomplish the same. Lexington and Saratoga could still do the 4x squadron launch. The early-service Essex class single launch was reduced to 3x squadrons plus a few, with the rest brought up from the hangar during the launch op if they wanted to do a 4x squadron launch.

The reductions were apparently due to heavier take-off weights and associated TO runs.

Incidentally, nearly all of the above info is from "U.S. Aircraft Carriers: An Illustrated Design History" by Norman Friedman.

Again, thanks for the info.

Thanks for the clarification, ThomasP.

I had already figured that it was an estimate for some carriers because not all were in service with the same kinds of aircraft at the same time. I can't recall if I own the book you mentioned or just borrowed it a lot of times. If I own it, I have no idea where it ended up.

- Ivan.

Speaking of getting a P-40 into the air, found this on YouTube, great aerial shots of P-40's flying and strafing, even of them taking off filmed from the air. Also love the way the narrator calls them "Kitties".

Also, the last one down, "Tom Jackman", wow, I guess the P-40 was tough, geez he's got a belt of unfired .50 cal ammo dangling from that gaping non wing there.

ThomasP said:

Hey Ivan1GFP,

Oops. Please see my edit above to my post#185.

The specs above were pre-war (early-1940) for Lexington, Ranger, and Yorktown. Wasp and Essex were not yet in service, so the 3.5x squadron launch for Essex was just an estimate, while the numbers for Wasp came from early-war.

Apparently, early-war it was considered that the Yorktown class could spot 2x squadrons plus a few, and had to bring up a few aircraft from the hangar deck while launch operations were going on in order to do a 3x squadron launch - Ranger and Wasp basically had to bring up an entire squadron to accomplish the same. Lexington and Saratoga could still do the 4x squadron launch. The early-service Essex class single launch was reduced to 3x squadrons plus a few, with the rest brought up from the hangar during the launch op if they wanted to do a 4x squadron launch.

The reductions were apparently due to heavier take-off weights and associated TO runs.

Incidentally, nearly all of the above info is from "U.S. Aircraft Carriers: An Illustrated Design History" by Norman Friedman.

Again, thanks for the info.

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Getting 2 squadrons (36) aircraft in one launch would be a stretch for Ranger. In Operation Leader Ranger launched 20 SBDs and 8 F4Fs in the first wave and 50 minutes later launched the second wave of 10 TBFs and 6 F4F. Note that wiki is wrong Ranger (and Wasp) carried 10 TBF not 18.

wuzak said:

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I guess the question is how fast and how much bounce that bomb makes. Damn, that was painful just watching it...

GrauGeist said:

Bear in mind that the warhead of a torpedo is a fraction of the overall weight.

For example, a US Mark 14 weighed 3,200 pounds, but only had a 640 pound warhead.
So delivering a 500 pound bomb alongside a ship would prove to be comparable to a torpedo hit, either in direct contact or a near-miss detonation that results in hydraulic damage to the ship.

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You'd have to factor in mass of explosives not just the mass of the warhead. That said, the velocity of the aircraft would compound the damage potential as F=M*A

"US Mark 14 weighed 3,200 pounds, but only had a 640 pound warhead."

US Mark 14
Mod 0: 507 lbs. (230 kg) TNT
Mod 3: 668 lbs. (303 kg) TPX

To get to 500lbs of explosive for the US you need around a 1000lb GP bomb.