Griffon Barracuda

[yulzari]

The Rolls Royce Griffon was a Royal Navy sponsored design. What could the Fairey Barracuda have been were it designed from the beginning around the Rolls Royce Griffon and not the Rolls Royce Exe (later swapped for the Merlin)?

 

[tomo pauk]

Result would've been a much less controversial aircraft. A workhorse, if you want.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Rolls Royce Griffon was a Royal Navy sponsored design. What could the Fairey Barracuda have been were it designed from the beginning around the Rolls Royce Griffon and not the Rolls Royce Exe (later swapped for the Merlin)?

Can we get it to replace the Swordfish instead of the Albacore?

 

[nuuumannn]

It might have helped having a Griffon, but the engine was perhaps the least of its worries. It was overloaded and a victim of the usual RAF/Admiralty tendency to put all its eggs in one basket. Aerodynamically it was a bit of a mess, which was unusual for a product of Lobelle's (Fairey's Belgian chief designer), but building an observer's lounge below the wing, making it also a dive bomber and a torpedo bomber didn't help. Those big Youngman flaps were definitely effective and were designed to aid not only in dive bombing but also torpedo attacks; the aircraft diving down at speed, launching the torpedo, retracting the flaps and escaping, but didn't help drag reduction - it's tailplane had to be relocated owing to airflow interference from them. Apart from being underpowered and a sluggish climber, pilots also complained that it was directionally unstable and it suffered from rudder over-balance.

 

[yulzari]

It might have helped having a Griffon, but the engine was perhaps the least of its worries. It was overloaded and a victim of the usual RAF/Admiralty tendency to put all its eggs in one basket. Aerodynamically it was a bit of a mess, which was unusual for a product of Lobelle's (Fairey's Belgian chief designer), but building an observer's lounge below the wing, making it also a dive bomber and a torpedo bomber didn't help. Those big Youngman flaps were definitely effective and were designed to aid not only in dive bombing but also torpedo attacks; the aircraft diving down at speed, launching the torpedo, retracting the flaps and escaping, but didn't help drag reduction - it's tailplane had to be relocated owing to airflow interference from them. Apart from being underpowered and a sluggish climber, pilots also complained that it was directionally unstable and it suffered from rudder over-balance.

Overloaded for the Merlin and Exe but was it so for the Griffon?

 

[fastmongrel]

The Observers lounge was a result of wanting clear vision without a big wing in the way. Of course with a bit of hindsight ASV Radar made it obsolete. I like to think if Lobelle hadnt been handicapped by the Observers station he could have designed a low wing fuselage with a semi recessed torpedo something like a Fairey Battle with a chin radiator.

I would quite like to see a powered low drag turret for defence, as poking a machine gun out of the back of the cockpit was pretty much useless by 1940.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It might have helped having a Griffon, but the engine was perhaps the least of its worries.

If the Griffon is available earlier, maybe the Barracuda is still a slug, but the Spitfire program says thank you very much.

Also, while the engine is likely too small vs the Sabre, the folks at Hawkers may want to try a Griffon in the Typhoon. Griffon Lancaster?

 

[yulzari]

The Observers lounge was a result of wanting clear vision without a big wing in the way. Of course with a bit of hindsight ASV Radar made it obsolete. I like to think if Lobelle hadnt been handicapped by the Observers station he could have designed a low wing fuselage with a semi recessed torpedo something like a Fairey Battle with a chin radiator.

I would quite like to see a powered low drag turret for defence, as poking a machine gun out of the back of the cockpit was pretty much useless by 1940.
View attachment 610380

He had become convinced that the drag of a hand operated gun was pointless, especially as rising speeds made it's operation increasingly difficult. Hence his light bomber and Firefly had no gun provision with the extra speed of a smooth fuselage being of more use and available turrets (e.g. Defiant type) even more draggy and very heavy. Although the later Spearfish had remote guns in side barbettes as technology improved.

 

[pbehn]

Don't you have to consider what engines the other planes on the carrier have?

 

[fastmongrel]

Don't you have to consider what engines the other planes on the carrier have?

That didn't seem to bother the Royal Navy. They had a good mix of Merlin's, Griffons and various Radials.

 

[nuuumannn]

If the Griffon is available earlier, maybe the Barracuda is still a slug, but the Spitfire program says thank you very much.

Also, while the engine is likely too small vs the Sabre, the folks at Hawkers may want to try a Griffon in the Typhoon. Griffon Lancaster?

Yup, hindsight is fabulous.

 

[nuuumannn]

Overloaded for the Merlin and Exe but was it so for the Griffon?

Let me get out my crystal ball and I'll get back to you. The point I'm making is that might have been worth fixing the other stuff before contemplating a new engine - it certainly wouldn't have done by changing from an Exe to a Griffon.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yup, hindsight is fabulous.

It's true, but what I'd really like the Brits to do is use reasonable foresight. Break out of the silos and share some info. Willful systemic blindness is not the same as a lack of hindsight.

The Observers lounge was a result of wanting clear vision without a big wing in the way. Of course with a bit of hindsight ASV Radar made it obsolete.

Hindsight wasn't needed, just cross department knowledge and a little informed foresight. For example, instead of compromising the Barracuda design with an observer's window, have the Air Ministry tell their aircraft procurement department to walk down the hall to the radar department and ask them what they think radar will do for naval aviation in a year or so.

 

[nuuumannn]

It's true, but what I'd really like the Brits to do is use reasonable foresight. Break out of the silos and share some info.
Hindsight wasn't needed, just cross department knowledge and a little informed foresight. For example, instead of compromising the Barracuda design with an observer's window, have the Air Ministry tell their aircraft procurement department to walk down the hall to the radar department and ask them what they think radar will do for naval aviation in a year or so.

Ahhh bureaucracy. Government departments not talking to each other? Unheard of!

 

[Admiral Beez]

Ahhh bureaucracy. Government departments not talking to each other? Unheard of!

Ha. I wonder what other examples of the impact of lack of intergovernmental communication we can come up with. Did the IJNAF and IJAF know that both were working on separate machine gun and cannon programs?

Of course the Nazi government system was designed to encourage chaos, mistrust and competition between ministries. It's amazing that for Barbarossa that the competing forces (Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, etc.) knew to show up on the same day.

 

[nuuumannn]

Ha. I wonder what other examples of the impact of lack of intergovernmental communication we can come up with.

Should we open a thread? Dumb decisions made by government departments/air departments that shouldn't have been made?

 

[RCAFson]

The basic problem with the Barracuda was the requirement for a high wing to give best visibility as required by the FAA spec. The high wing caused issues with the airflow over the elevators, and forced the use of extremely long, heavy and draggy LG. With a lower wing, it would have been ~500lb lighter and TO performance would have improved due to the lighter weight and less drag from the extended gear. The Mk1 would have entered service in late 1941 because it could then use the Merlin 30 engine and still be carrier capable, rather than having to wait for the Merlin 32 to become available.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The basic problem with the Barracuda was the requirement for a high wing to give best visibility as required by the FAA spec. The high wing caused issues with the airflow over the elevators, and forced the use of extremely long, heavy and draggy LG.

Ugly as it was, it looks like one of the best landing of the FAA's monoplane aircraft.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Rolls Royce Griffon was a Royal Navy sponsored design. What could the Fairey Barracuda have been were it designed from the beginning around the Rolls Royce Griffon and not the Rolls Royce Exe (later swapped for the Merlin)?

The Barracuda Mk V was deployed with the Griffon. Perhaps this is where we should start.

Aircraft Photo of RK558 | Fairey Barracuda TF5 | UK - Navy | AirHistory.net #7785