marconi said:
They were captured and held as POW's and later released.
Henk said:
Yes I know what you are talking about and the Blackhawk, Apache, and Commanche can do that.
Ground Support Helicopters
- Thread starter Henk
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They were captured and held as POW's and later released.
Yes I know what you are talking about and the Blackhawk, Apache, and Commanche can do that.
- Thread starter
- #22
Henk
Master Sergeant
OK cool.
Henk
Henk
Hi there. In what areas is the Apache better than the Rooivalk? The helmet mounted system that is used to connect the movement of the gun and the head of the pilot was developed by South Africa. The Mokopa missile that Denel produces that comes onto the Rooivalk can shoot further (10.5 km) than the American Hellfire missile. The Rooivalk is also better suited to a warm, bushy climate and environment than the Apache. Regards
How is better suited to a warm climate?
One of the Rooivalk technicians said that the Rooivalk outperformed the Apache in Saudi and Australia because it's systems are better equipped to heat. The Rooivalk is also better in a harsh environment because it is easy to operate. It is built to fight in a bushy area.
According to a Rooivalk engineer it outperformed the Apache in Saudi and Australia a few years ago, its systems is better equipped to the heat. The Rooivalk is built to fight in harsh, bushy, warm areas. It is easy to operate in those environments and heat. It's range is 740 km, which means that is can move over great distances which is needed in peace missions.
Here is the link to a video showing a Rooivalk performing a 360 degree loop.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAuqaJUFsfU
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAuqaJUFsfU
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"A Rooivalk Engineer." Care to provide his name and his experience in working on BOTH helicopters???
The Rooivalk is a fine machine, but the last time I looked the deserts of Iraq are hot and dusty. When you say "bushy" are you referring to high heat, high humidity environments? The Apache operates in those environments (The AH-64's first combat action was in Panama) plus the extreme weather swings of Afghanistan. The Apache is combat proven and during the Gulf War a total of 277 AH-64s took part, destroying 278 tanks, numerous armored personnel carriers and other Iraqi vehicles. As of 2011, the U.S. Army Apache fleet had accumulated more than 3 million flight hours since the first prototype flew in 1975. Besides the US Army, 13 other nations fly the AH-64 and it still continues to be refined. There have been over 1,000 AH-64s built and as we speak older airframes and continued to be re-manufactured. There have only been 12 Rooivalks ever produced and not one sold abroad.
Taken from Wiki, here's a comparison;
Rooivalk
Crew: 2 (pilot weapon systems officer)
Length: 18.73 m[18] (61 ft 5 1⁄2 in)
Rotor diameter: 15.58 m (51 ft 1 1⁄2 in)
Height: 5.19 m (17 ft 0¼ in)
Disc area: 190.60 m2 (2,052.1 sq ft)
Empty weight: 5,730 kg (12,632 lb)
Loaded weight: 7,500 kg (16,535 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 8,750 kg (19,290 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Turbomeca Makila 1K2 turboshafts, 1,420 kW (1,904 shp) each
Internal fuel capacity: 1,854 L (489.8 US gallons)
Performance
Never exceed speed: 309 km/h (167 knots, 193 mph)
Cruise speed: 278 km/h (150 knots, 173 mph) at sea level (max cruise)
Range: 740 km (380 nmi, 437 mi) at sea level(max internal fuel)
Ferry range: 1,335 km (720 nmi, 829 mi) at 1525 m (5,000 ft) (max external fuel)
Service ceiling: 6,100 m (20,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 13.3 m/s (2,620 ft/min)
Armament
1 × F2 20 mm cannon, 700 rounds
8 or 16 × Mokopa ZT-6 long-range anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM),
4 × MBDA Mistral air-to-air missiles,
38 or 76 × 70 mm folding fin aerial rockets (FFAR)
AH-64 Apache
General characteristics
Crew: 2 (pilot, and co-pilot/gunner)
Length: 58.17 ft (17.73 m) (with both rotors turning)
Rotor diameter: 48 ft 0 in (14.63 m)
Height: 12.7 ft (3.87 m)
Disc area: 1,809.5 ft² (168.11 m²)
Empty weight: 11,387 lb (5,165 kg)
Loaded weight: 17,650 lb (8,000 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 23,000 lb (10,433 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × General Electric T700-GE-701 and later upgraded to T700-GE-701C (1990–present) T700-GE-701D (AH-64E) turboshafts, -701: 1,690 shp, −701C: 1,890 shp, −701D: 2,000 shp (-701: 1,260 kW, −701C: 1,409 kW, −701D: 1,490 kW) each
Fuselage length: 49 ft 5 in (15.06 m)
Rotor systems: 4 blade main rotor, 4 blade tail rotor in non-orthogonal alignment
Performance
Never exceed speed: 197 knots (227 mph, 365 km/h)
Maximum speed: 158 knots (182 mph, 293 km/h)
Cruise speed: 143 knots (165 mph, 265 km/h)
Range: 257 nmi (295 mi, 476 km) with Longbow radar mast
Combat radius: 260 nmi (300 mi, 480 km)
Ferry range: 1,024 nmi (1,180 mi, 1,900 km)
Service ceiling: 21,000 ft (6,400 m) minimum loaded
Rate of climb: 2,500 ft/min (12.7 m/s)
Disc loading: 9.80 lb/ft² (47.9 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb (0.31 kW/kg)
Armament
Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) M230 Chain Gun with 1,200 rounds as part of the Area Weapon Subsystem
Hardpoints: Four pylon stations on the stub wings. Longbows also have a station on each wingtip for an AIM-92 Stinger twin missile pack.
Rockets: Hydra 70 70 mm, and CRV7 70 mm air-to-ground rockets
Missiles: Typically AGM-114 Hellfire variants; AIM-92 Stinger may also be carried.
I see little distinct difference between the two except for some marketing claims about the Rooivalk. It's obvious the AH-64 carries way more advanced weapons systems and is notabily faster. In the field I'd take a combat proven weapons system any day despite claims of it being a "better" machine, probably why no one beside South Africa operates the Rooivalk...
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Hi there FLYBOYJ
The Rooivalk did well in Australia and Saudi a couple of years back against the Apache. The Rooivalk is a very robust helicopter for harsh environments, and so are the Apache. The two helicopters are very the same. The only difference according to me is that the Apache has the milimetric wave radar, which is very effective. But the Rooivalk can also incorporate the milimetric radar, there just is no need for it now. And I don't think that the Apache's weapons systems are much better. The Rooivalk has the South African built Mokopa missile, itt is like the Hellfire of the US, but it can shoot over a greater distance, at about 10.5 KM. We also had two pilots from the UK that tested the Rooivalk and they said the handling is very good. But, every person differs. Not all people like Ferrari, just like not all people like Porche. The world would be a boring place if everyone and everything was the same. Both systems are very good. The reason why SA haven't got an overseas based order is because some 4 years ago Denel Aviation had money issues, and everyone thought that the place would close. They had no confidence in Denel, and rather went for the Tiger helicopter, like Turkey did. But Denel is doing much better the last three years and are getting huge overseas based contracts on their products.
Here are the correct specs of the Rooivalk:
Aircraft: Denel Rooivalk
Helicopter type : Combat support helicopter
Entered service : 1999 (fully operationial in 2011)
Company: Denel Aviation
Production: 1990-2007
Crew : 2 men
Dimensions and weight :
-Length : 18.73 m
-Main rotor diameter : 15.58 m
-Height : 5.19 m
-Weight (empty) : 5.9 t
-Weight (maximum take off) : 8450 kg
Power plant and performance:
-Engines : 2 x Turbomeca Makila 1K2 turboshaft engines
-Engine power : Output of 1716 Kw per engine
-Maximum speed : 326 km/h
-Cruising speed : 278 km/h
-Maximum sideways speed: 84 km/h
-Range : 700 km (internal 1440 kg fuel), 1260 km (external fuel tanks)
-Service ceiling : *19,200 feet
-Rate of climb : 13.3 m/s (2,620 ft/min)
-Fuel capacity and type : 1440 kg/ Jet A-1
Armament :
-1 × F2 20 mm cannon (740 rounds a minute)
-8 or 16 × Denel Dynamics Mokopa ZT-6 long-range anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) (Range: 8.5-10 KM)
-4 × MBDA Mistral air-to-air missiles (Range: 6 KM)
-38 or 76 × Forges de Zeebrugge (Belgium) 70 mm folding fin aerial rockets (FFAR)
Missions :
-Aircraft escort
-Landing zone/Drop zone protection
-Close air support
-Reconnaissance
-Anti-armour
Survivability :
The Rooivalk has a crash-resistant structure and is designed for stealth with low radar, visual, infrared and acoustic signatures.**
Cockpit:
Full glass, stepped tandem cockpits. The cockpits for the pilot and weapon systems officer (WSO)*are equipped with hands-on collective And stick (HOCAS) controls, as well as three LCD displays. The third display is used for threat warning. There is no head-up display, but symbology is displayed on the helmet visor in full colour.*The weapon systems officer (WSO) is seated in the front cockpit and the pilot is seated in the cockpit above and behind the WSO. The cockpits, which are fitted with crashworthy seats and are armour-protected.
Avionics :
Fully integrated, dual redundant MIL-std*1553B-based avionics and weapons*system, providing the following*management features:
-total mission modes
-target acquisition
-flight control
-health and usage monitoring
-Communications
-threat detection and control
-flight and fuel
Electronic warfare (Self-defence suite) :
The Rooivalk's self-defence suite is the fully integrated helicopter electronic warfare self-protection suite (HEWSPS), incorporating radar warning, laser warning and countermeasures dispensing system. The system is flight-line programmable and in-flight adaptable to match the threat library with the mission's area of operation.
The radar warner features low-effective radiated power (ERP) / pulse Doppler radar detection beyond radar detection range, ultra broadband frequency coverage, high pulse density handling and internal instantaneous frequency measurement.
The laser warner provides broadband laser frequency coverage to detect and display rangefinding, designating and missile guidance laser threats.
The countermeasures dispensing system, which is operated in manual, semi-automatic or fully automatic mode, is charged*with infrared (IR) heat suppressors on the engine exhausts and with chaff (radar jamming material) and flare (to distract IR homing missiles) dispensers.
Sight system:
-Main sight system
The main Rooivalk sight is called the 'NightOwl' system and was developed by Société de Fabrication d'Instruments de Mesure (SFIM), later part of SAGEM. Target acquisition and detection are carried out using the nose-mounted stabilised*electro- optical sight system. The sight system is equipped with*a TV sensor and a forward looking infrared system (giving both day and night capabilities), autotracker, as well as a laser rangefinder and laser designator.
*
-Helmet-mounted sight display (HMSD)
A TopOwl helmet-mounted sight display (HMSD) provides the pilot and WSO with a head-up display of information for nap-of-the-earth flight (NOE), and it allows the pilot, if required, to also fire the cannon and rockets. TopOwl incorporates an integrated measurement system for directing an articulated weapon such as the cannon, or air-to-air missile seeker heads. By the use of electromagnetic tracking the pilot can just point his/her head at the target to direct the weapons toward the target. It has an integrated Gen IV image intensifier and FLIR (forward looking infrared) capability and provides transition from day to night use at the push of a button. The TopOwl HMSD was developed by Sextant Avionique (became part of Thales at a later stage).The PNVS (pilot night vision system) was developed by Cumulus (became part of Denel Optronics, and later Cassidian Optronics). Each helmet has two monocular display modules with integrated CRTs that can project both heads-up display symbology and video images directly into the crew member's line of sight, so the crew retain access to their HMDS symbology whether using NVGs or not and the pilot in control similarly gets real-time imagery from the PNVS allowing him or her to fly low-level Nap-of-the-Earth (NOE) missions in pitch darkness.
Navigation and Automatic Flight Control :
The navigation computer is a hybridised system, using both Global Positioning System and Inertial Navigation System inputs.The Rooivalk is equipped with an advanced navigation suite including Doppler radar velocity sensor, Thales Avionics eight-channel global positioning system, heading sensor unit and an air data unit. It also includes radio navigation equipment.
The Automated Flight Control System (AFCS) provides basic stability augmentation. It can also operate in what are termed higher modes, allowing the helicopter to hover automatic- ally, keep flying at certain altitudes automatically, and, in navigation mode, to automatically follow a prescribed route as well as orientating the aircraft to a target as directed by the main sighting system.
Communications :
The communications suite consists of two VHF/UHF transceivers with FM, AM and digital speech processing, one HF radio with frequency hopping and secure voice and data channels, and an IFF transponder.
Facts :
-South Africa is now one of only 9 countries worldwide that has developed their own attack helicopter.
The Rooivalk did well in Australia and Saudi a couple of years back against the Apache. The Rooivalk is a very robust helicopter for harsh environments, and so are the Apache. The two helicopters are very the same. The only difference according to me is that the Apache has the milimetric wave radar, which is very effective. But the Rooivalk can also incorporate the milimetric radar, there just is no need for it now. And I don't think that the Apache's weapons systems are much better. The Rooivalk has the South African built Mokopa missile, itt is like the Hellfire of the US, but it can shoot over a greater distance, at about 10.5 KM. We also had two pilots from the UK that tested the Rooivalk and they said the handling is very good. But, every person differs. Not all people like Ferrari, just like not all people like Porche. The world would be a boring place if everyone and everything was the same. Both systems are very good. The reason why SA haven't got an overseas based order is because some 4 years ago Denel Aviation had money issues, and everyone thought that the place would close. They had no confidence in Denel, and rather went for the Tiger helicopter, like Turkey did. But Denel is doing much better the last three years and are getting huge overseas based contracts on their products.
Here are the correct specs of the Rooivalk:
Aircraft: Denel Rooivalk
Helicopter type : Combat support helicopter
Entered service : 1999 (fully operationial in 2011)
Company: Denel Aviation
Production: 1990-2007
Crew : 2 men
Dimensions and weight :
-Length : 18.73 m
-Main rotor diameter : 15.58 m
-Height : 5.19 m
-Weight (empty) : 5.9 t
-Weight (maximum take off) : 8450 kg
Power plant and performance:
-Engines : 2 x Turbomeca Makila 1K2 turboshaft engines
-Engine power : Output of 1716 Kw per engine
-Maximum speed : 326 km/h
-Cruising speed : 278 km/h
-Maximum sideways speed: 84 km/h
-Range : 700 km (internal 1440 kg fuel), 1260 km (external fuel tanks)
-Service ceiling : *19,200 feet
-Rate of climb : 13.3 m/s (2,620 ft/min)
-Fuel capacity and type : 1440 kg/ Jet A-1
Armament :
-1 × F2 20 mm cannon (740 rounds a minute)
-8 or 16 × Denel Dynamics Mokopa ZT-6 long-range anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) (Range: 8.5-10 KM)
-4 × MBDA Mistral air-to-air missiles (Range: 6 KM)
-38 or 76 × Forges de Zeebrugge (Belgium) 70 mm folding fin aerial rockets (FFAR)
Missions :
-Aircraft escort
-Landing zone/Drop zone protection
-Close air support
-Reconnaissance
-Anti-armour
Survivability :
The Rooivalk has a crash-resistant structure and is designed for stealth with low radar, visual, infrared and acoustic signatures.**
Cockpit:
Full glass, stepped tandem cockpits. The cockpits for the pilot and weapon systems officer (WSO)*are equipped with hands-on collective And stick (HOCAS) controls, as well as three LCD displays. The third display is used for threat warning. There is no head-up display, but symbology is displayed on the helmet visor in full colour.*The weapon systems officer (WSO) is seated in the front cockpit and the pilot is seated in the cockpit above and behind the WSO. The cockpits, which are fitted with crashworthy seats and are armour-protected.
Avionics :
Fully integrated, dual redundant MIL-std*1553B-based avionics and weapons*system, providing the following*management features:
-total mission modes
-target acquisition
-flight control
-health and usage monitoring
-Communications
-threat detection and control
-flight and fuel
Electronic warfare (Self-defence suite) :
The Rooivalk's self-defence suite is the fully integrated helicopter electronic warfare self-protection suite (HEWSPS), incorporating radar warning, laser warning and countermeasures dispensing system. The system is flight-line programmable and in-flight adaptable to match the threat library with the mission's area of operation.
The radar warner features low-effective radiated power (ERP) / pulse Doppler radar detection beyond radar detection range, ultra broadband frequency coverage, high pulse density handling and internal instantaneous frequency measurement.
The laser warner provides broadband laser frequency coverage to detect and display rangefinding, designating and missile guidance laser threats.
The countermeasures dispensing system, which is operated in manual, semi-automatic or fully automatic mode, is charged*with infrared (IR) heat suppressors on the engine exhausts and with chaff (radar jamming material) and flare (to distract IR homing missiles) dispensers.
Sight system:
-Main sight system
The main Rooivalk sight is called the 'NightOwl' system and was developed by Société de Fabrication d'Instruments de Mesure (SFIM), later part of SAGEM. Target acquisition and detection are carried out using the nose-mounted stabilised*electro- optical sight system. The sight system is equipped with*a TV sensor and a forward looking infrared system (giving both day and night capabilities), autotracker, as well as a laser rangefinder and laser designator.
*
-Helmet-mounted sight display (HMSD)
A TopOwl helmet-mounted sight display (HMSD) provides the pilot and WSO with a head-up display of information for nap-of-the-earth flight (NOE), and it allows the pilot, if required, to also fire the cannon and rockets. TopOwl incorporates an integrated measurement system for directing an articulated weapon such as the cannon, or air-to-air missile seeker heads. By the use of electromagnetic tracking the pilot can just point his/her head at the target to direct the weapons toward the target. It has an integrated Gen IV image intensifier and FLIR (forward looking infrared) capability and provides transition from day to night use at the push of a button. The TopOwl HMSD was developed by Sextant Avionique (became part of Thales at a later stage).The PNVS (pilot night vision system) was developed by Cumulus (became part of Denel Optronics, and later Cassidian Optronics). Each helmet has two monocular display modules with integrated CRTs that can project both heads-up display symbology and video images directly into the crew member's line of sight, so the crew retain access to their HMDS symbology whether using NVGs or not and the pilot in control similarly gets real-time imagery from the PNVS allowing him or her to fly low-level Nap-of-the-Earth (NOE) missions in pitch darkness.
Navigation and Automatic Flight Control :
The navigation computer is a hybridised system, using both Global Positioning System and Inertial Navigation System inputs.The Rooivalk is equipped with an advanced navigation suite including Doppler radar velocity sensor, Thales Avionics eight-channel global positioning system, heading sensor unit and an air data unit. It also includes radio navigation equipment.
The Automated Flight Control System (AFCS) provides basic stability augmentation. It can also operate in what are termed higher modes, allowing the helicopter to hover automatic- ally, keep flying at certain altitudes automatically, and, in navigation mode, to automatically follow a prescribed route as well as orientating the aircraft to a target as directed by the main sighting system.
Communications :
The communications suite consists of two VHF/UHF transceivers with FM, AM and digital speech processing, one HF radio with frequency hopping and secure voice and data channels, and an IFF transponder.
Facts :
-South Africa is now one of only 9 countries worldwide that has developed their own attack helicopter.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
In war games.
How did it do "well"? Battlefield confrontations? Destroyed more targets? Better FMC rates?
All the other specs you list just about mimic the Apache, not taking anything away from the Rooivalk. Also look at the price tag, the Rooivalk seems to cost more, probably because of it's short production run.
And a job well done
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Not sure what that technician was talking about, but the Apaches that where with us in Iraq performed just fine. I think your technician friend is just biased. Thats normal for a technician. I am biased to the Blackhawk for instance.
The South African minister of defence said in Feb this year that the government is deciding on whether to restart the production of the Rooivalk. Following the success it had in the DRC last year by defeating the M23 Rebels in just 3 days (where the Russian MI 24 struggled for a few years now) there is lots of overseas interest in the Rooivalk again. We need an order of about 50 to restart production. The South African air force is also deciding to buy more Rooivalks. The other option is to build a new, smaller, compact Rooivalk that is cheaper but just as effective.
