Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

LOL Well said Udet. I agree with you fully on the Soviets. And as for the victor writes the History books you are completely correct unless you are RG_Lunatic and then you right the history books. And you are absolutly correct about Americans. I will correct myself in future posts.

Hello DerAdler!

:BIG:

When I first read "why do they hate Americans so much?", my first thought was: "What did they poor Peruvians do to be hated so much? Or the colombians? Or the very poor Argentinians?"

hehehe

DerAdler, reading on some other threads, did I read well? Are you currently in Irak? If so, have you seen combat? Or to what kind of unit do you belong?

Cheers!

i believe he works with blackhawk helicopters...............

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Yeah but RG_Lunatic thinks everyone hates Americans, and that everyone owes America there lives. I really hate saying things like this because I am pround of my American citizenship and always will be, but I dont think anyone owes anything to anyone.

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That's not true.

The only thing I think most other countries owe the USA is respect. However when it comes to Germany, Japan, France, Britain, etc... I think some gratitude is also in order because of US post-war financial generosity. When someone gives you 10's of billions of 1946 dollars that is deserving of gratitude don't you think?

And I think this is magnified with respect to Germany and Japan, because they were our enemies in WWII and we forgave them for their actions immeadiately and rebuilt their countries. You act like we owed this to them for beating them.

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Lunatic

The USA forgiving Germany for its actions??

May I know what kind of offense Germany conducted against the people of the USA?

Udet said:

The USA forgiving Germany for its actions??

May I know what kind of offense Germany conducted against the people of the USA?

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Prior to the war Germany sank US shipping. In 1941 Germany declared war on the USA and announced its alliance with Japan. Germany conspired with the Japanese in the Perl Harbor attack.

The USA suffered something on the order of 115,000 soldiers killed and another 375,000 wounded in the ETO. German treatment of POW was frequently brutal.

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Lunatic

Hello over there RgLunatic:

I do think the things you affirmed in your posting are not true, at all. This is not even the case of disagreeing with the opinions of others.

If you are interested, you can research further on such issues and you will easily discover things did not happen the way you put it here.

First: Germany never ever, at all, conspired with the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. From where did you get such arguments?

Not only the Germans did not conspire with the Japs to destroy the US fleet in Oahu, there is a theory, which might never be proved, that it was President Roosevelt who planned the Japanese attack!

Hitler was totally surprised when knowing of the Japanese attack.

Second: Hitler had issued Admiral Karl Dönitz with extremely strict orders regarding the operations of U-boats in the Atlantic since September 1939; among others, one of such very strict orders was to avoid at all cost any possible confussion while attacking shipping in the Atlantic, they should never ever, under any circumstance, attack US shipping.

Such strict rules were quite difficult to follow in certain combat situations like poor weather, night sighting of possible targets, etc. and in few ocassions US shipping got hit.

Such situations happened due to determined combat conditions where observing Hitler´s rules was nearly impossible, if not completely impossible, rather than to a designed mission to sink US shipping.

Furthermore, vessels of the US navy in the atlantic were providing with escort "services" the British convoys across the ocean, and they harassed U-boats attempting to attack the ships of a declared German enemy: Great Britain.

With this I mean while the U-boats were attempting to attack the ships of beligerant nation (UK) the vessels of a non-combatant nation (USA) were already taking part of the action.

The destroyer USS Reuben James pushed the limits even further and the U-boat skipper had to make his decision: it is either my ship or this one attacking me: the USS Reuben James went down with the majority of her crew well before Pearl Harbor; but really if you read on that specific engagement, any of us, in the shoes of the German skipper, would have fired our torpedoes against such vessel.

To make the long story short, it appears to me it was the USA (the government, not the people of the USA) who was in the urge of provoking Germany to enter the war.

Cheers!

Udet said:

First: Germany never ever, at all, conspired with the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. From where did you get such arguments?

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Germany had a spy in PH, and it is known that his reports went to Germany and from there directly to the Japanese.

Udet said:

Not only the Germans did not conspire with the Japs to destroy the US fleet in Oahu, there is a theory, which might never be proved, that it was President Roosevelt who planned the Japanese attack!

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The theory (and I believe it) is that Roosevelt knew of the attack from some code breaking, but that either through snafu's or intent, this was not forwarded to the USN at Honolulu. That is not "planning" the attack, but it is significant if it was intentional.

Udet said:

Hitler was totally surprised when knowing of the Japanese attack.

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I don't think this is true. I think he may not have been privy to the details of the attack but I think he knew the Japanese intended to attack the USA in the Pacific. I know that he had tried to convince them to instead attack the British in India, but they refused because they wanted to attack the USA.

As for the U-Boats and sinking of US merchant vessles, I'll respond to that when I have a little more time to look up the facts.

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Lunatic

In 1941 Germany declared war on the USA

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If anything I thought it was the USA declaring war on Germany...

cheddar cheese said:

In 1941 Germany declared war on the USA

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If anything I thought it was the USA declaring war on Germany...

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A very common misconception... but it is wrong.

In 1940 Germany and Japan signed a treaty. When the Japanese attacked in Dec. 1941, Hitler honored that treaty and delcared war on the USA. I believe it was on the 10th of December. One of Hitler's more stupid decisions, had he not done so, the "Europe first" policy probably could not have been undertaken, the American people would have demanded we focus on Japan first, and our status vs. the Germans would have been questionable, though we probably would have allied with the British against the Japanese and thus ended up fighting Germany later anyway.

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Lunatic

Ah ok, thanks 8)

Hi RG Lunatic!

It is a recorded fact:

While the USA was still "neutral", units of the US Navy were not only escorting British convoys across the Atlantic, but also harassing U-boats homing in for the attack; the USA was trying to provoke Germany even though Hitler had issued his orders to the U-boat force forbidding any friction with the USA.

Why did the USA try to provoke Germany? I do not know.

The case of the destruction and sinking of the destroyer "USS Reuben James" was kind of a natural outcome of such harassment policy conducted by the US Navy against German subs.

This is easy to verify on virtually any book that is Battle of the Atlantic related.


Here we can find an interesting issue arising:

All politicians and statemen, of all times, from the most ancient eras to the present-day world, sign pacts which are binding for as long as their interests switch. (i.e. Sadam Hussein was at a specific moment a dear ally of the US until conditions changed, becoming thus an enemy of the USA)

Hitler can not be the exception to such rule. He indeed had a pact with Japan, not very clear as to its scope, but the clearest intention, if you will, implied a probable Japanese involvement in the military campaign against the USSR, so the bolsheviks would find themselves forced to wage a two front war.

Unlike history has depicted the facts, Hitler had no interest placed at all across the Atlantic ocean. His fundamental goal was to destroy the soviet communist system and to expand the Reich eastwards.


When december 7th, 1941 came, any possibility for Japan to attack the soviet union in the far east simply dissapeared.

Why did Hitler "honor" his pact with Japan in view of the circumstances?

Isn´t it very odd, Hitler immediately declared a state of war against the USA, in order to remain loyal to an ally (Japan) from who Hitler himself could now obtain virtually NOTHING?

What kind of advantages and military profit could Germany obtain from Japan once Pearl Harbor was attacked? The answer is ZERO.

So why did such a clever stateman such as Hitler proceed in such a foolish manner?

He was no perfect man, for after all, he was human too, but, that kind of mistake?

Didn´t it sound like it was the right moment for the Führer to declare the German-Japanese alliance terminated?

Hitler feared not the US armed forces as such, after all in many engagements the armed forces of the USA suffered tremendous local defeats against the Germans.

It was the geography, size and industrial power of the USA which in the end he accounted. But do not forget, Hitler had no interest at all in the USA.

This, in my opinion, will remain a very dark issue of World War Two.
If Hitler had made it clear to his top officers Germany would never ever wage a war against the USA, why did he declare the war right after Pearl Harbor?

The "Hitler was a very complex mind" argument is not sufficient here.

Since I am not a history researcher, I will certainy continue to have all those questions unanswered.

It is registered: Hitler wanted to avoid AT ALL COST any military involvement of the USA in Europe. The

Udet said:

Hi RG Lunatic!

It is a recorded fact:

While the USA was still "neutral", units of the US Navy were not only escorting British convoys across the Atlantic, but also harassing U-boats homing in for the attack; the USA was trying to provoke Germany even though Hitler had issued his orders to the U-boat force forbidding any friction with the USA.

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No, the "recorded facts" are that Germany sunk 4 US mechants in the last months of 1939, 32 in 1940, and 61 in 1941.

Udet said:

Why did the USA try to provoke Germany? I do not know.

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The USA had a policy of freedom of the Sea. As such it had every right to defend its merchant shipping. But, IIRC, US escorts only went as far as Iceland, after that shipping bound for England was up to the English to protect.

Udet said:

Here we can find an interesting issue arising:

All politicians and statemen, of all times, from the most ancient eras to the present-day world, sign pacts which are binding for as long as their interests switch. (i.e. Sadam Hussein was at a specific moment a dear ally of the US until conditions changed, becoming thus an enemy of the USA)

Hitler can not be the exception to such rule. He indeed had a pact with Japan, not very clear as to its scope, but the clearest intention, if you will, implied a probable Japanese involvement in the military campaign against the USSR, so the bolsheviks would find themselves forced to wage a two front war.

Unlike history has depicted the facts, Hitler had no interest placed at all across the Atlantic ocean. His fundamental goal was to destroy the soviet communist system and to expand the Reich eastwards.

When december 7th, 1941 came, any possibility for Japan to attack the soviet union in the far east simply dissapeared.

Why did Hitler "honor" his pact with Japan in view of the circumstances?

Isn´t it very odd, Hitler immediately declared a state of war against the USA, in order to remain loyal to an ally (Japan) from who Hitler himself could now obtain virtually NOTHING?

What kind of advantages and military profit could Germany obtain from Japan once Pearl Harbor was attacked? The answer is ZERO.

So why did such a clever stateman such as Hitler proceed in such a foolish manner?

He was no perfect man, for after all, he was human too, but, that kind of mistake?

Didn´t it sound like it was the right moment for the Führer to declare the German-Japanese alliance terminated?

Hitler feared not the US armed forces as such, after all in many engagements the armed forces of the USA suffered tremendous local defeats against the Germans.

It was the geography, size and industrial power of the USA which in the end he accounted. But do not forget, Hitler had no interest at all in the USA.

This, in my opinion, will remain a very dark issue of World War Two.
If Hitler had made it clear to his top officers Germany would never ever wage a war against the USA, why did he declare the war right after Pearl Harbor?

The "Hitler was a very complex mind" argument is not sufficient here.

Since I am not a history researcher, I will certainy continue to have all those questions unanswered.

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There are several answers about why Hitler declared war on the USA.

1) He felt that a British-American alliance against the Japanese was inevitable, and that this would in turn put the USA against Germany. If this was going to happen he wanted the Japanese to be "on his side" and thus he had to honor the treaty.

2) Being a staunch racist, and believing the Japanese to be the "master race of Asia", he felt the Japanese would prevail, or at least hold their own, in the War with the US mongrels. He also overestimated, as did the Japanese, the impact of the PH attack.

3) He still had hopes the Japanese would join his war. In fact, they tried to do so in their failed attempt to work their way up through Burma and into India. The belief was that if the Japananese could reach India, that it was ripe to flip sides against the British, and this would add several hundred thousand already equiped and trained soldiers to the Axis side, and this would have double the effect because it would mean an equal number removed from the Allied side.

4) He still hoped the Japanese would attack Russia in the far East.

Finally, Hitler was an idiot! He was a master of decieving people who wanted to be decieved, nothing more. And this certianly included himself. He blundered repeatedly in WWII.

=S=

Lunatic

Finally, Hitler was an idiot! He was a master of decieving people who wanted to be decieved, nothing more. And this certianly included himself. He blundered repeatedly in WWII.

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Amen to that.................

This is an argument that is talked about a lot. Rosevelt did everything he could to protect the shipping and try to remaine out of the war. That said USN ships would go after U-boats. But The USA wated to stay out as long as posible, but Lend-Lease would have brought them in soon.

As for Hitler and Pearl Harbor, I have not found any information that supports he knew or asked about it. Yes he wanted the Japanese to fight Russa, the USA wanted Russia to fight Japan, but that did not hapen until 1945.

As for Polesti and Russia, the Soviets had the Pe-2 or Pe-8 that could have reached the oil to protect it, but they were in greater need protecting the russian army. They did help hold off Germany so that Italy could fold and the B-24s could fly over. Tat was one of the most wel prtected sites in Europe.

MP-Willow said:

As for Hitler and Pearl Harbor, I have not found any information that supports he knew or asked about it.

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All I said about this was that it is known that Germany had one of their top spies in PH, and that his reports went almost directly to the Japanese. This intel was used by them to plan their attack.

Midway. By all chances the Japs should have decimated the entire American fleet. Only dumb luck got the Americans the victory. An invasion of Midway would have been followed by an invasion of Hawaii. America would then have been compelled to move all strength towards the pacific, giving the Germans some breathing room.

well us brits would still be in the atlantic................

Cheap Labour said:

Midway. By all chances the Japs should have decimated the entire American fleet. Only dumb luck got the Americans the victory. An invasion of Midway would have been followed by an invasion of Hawaii. America would then have been compelled to move all strength towards the pacific, giving the Germans some breathing room.

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Well, having broken the Japanese code and knowing what they were up to had a lot to do with the US victory. Bad strategy and tactics on the part of Yammamoto also didn't hurt.

I don't think the Japanese would have tried to invade Hawaii. There were too many American soldiers there and it was to well stocked with supplies, and too far from Japan. However, had Midway been taken, the US would have either had to take it back, which would have delayed the pacific campaign another 18 months to 2 years, or it would have had to focus its efforts via Burma in a very bloody war down through SE Asia. I agree it would have taken stress off the Germans.

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Lunatic