Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

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No, no he didn't - I'm sorry to say. Guderian advised Rommel to move his Panzer Divisions to the coast so they could react quickly to any attack, wherever on the coast it happened. Rommel, being afraid of the Allied air power, kept all his Panzer divisions back and also allowed two Panzer divisions to be in the south of France.
If Guderian had been Commander in the West then the Western Allies would have had a much harder time. Air power was great but Rommel was too scared of it to think clearly.
 
He shouldn't have been so scared of them though. Guderian was right but Rommel refused to listen.
 
plan_D said:
He shouldn't have been so scared of them though. Guderian was right but Rommel refused to listen.
Click to expand...

That is easy to say now with 20/20 hindsight. But had Guderian prevailed, the Panzers been moved up, and wiped out by Allied air attacks before D-Day, you'd be singing the opposite tune right?

Once moved forward it would have been much easier to pin them and prevent them from going where they were needed.

The real flaw was that Hitler had to authorize the movements of those Panzers. He was sleeping and no one dared wake him so they were not able to react to D-Day until it was a done-deal.

=S=

Lunatic
 
No, I wouldn't be saying anything different because that wouldn't have happened. Had the Panzer Divisions been waiting behind the beach then Caen De Canal bridge wouldn't have been a problem and 21st Panzer Division would have been sweeping the beach heads before Allied armour even came ashore.

I can say it would have worked now, and Guderian said it would have worked then. He was right, Rommel should have listened but didn't. He made a mistake, it is unfortunate Rommel cannot give his post-war opinion on things such as Guderian did.

The thing about Hitler not being awoken, wouldn't have been a problem and Rommel moved the Panzers forward before D-Day. We're not talking June preparations, this was weeks before D-Day even happened. Rommel was mistaken in his thinking, Guderian was right.
 
Rommel was in command of the Atlantic Wall, sub-ordinate only to Von Runstedt. Guderian confronted Von Runstedt, who was willing to move the Panzers forward until Rommel disagreed. Von Rundstedt then changed sides and went with Rommel.
It was Rommels flawed thinking that sealed D-Day. Don't get me wrong, he was a great military mind that made a mistake. As I said, it's unfortunate he cannot reflect on the war. Guderian made some mistakes too, and he got to admit them in Panzer Leader (1957).
 
You're talking 6th June here. I'm talking weeks before. On 6th June, Rommel was in Germany visiting his wife for her 50th birthday. He wasn't even at his post. He couldn't have expected an invasion on that day though.

It's a huge credit to the Allied forces that they practically caught the Germans with their pants down.
 
plan_D said:
No, I wouldn't be saying anything different because that wouldn't have happened. Had the Panzer Divisions been waiting behind the beach then Caen De Canal bridge wouldn't have been a problem and 21st Panzer Division would have been sweeping the beach heads before Allied armour even came ashore.

I can say it would have worked now, and Guderian said it would have worked then. He was right, Rommel should have listened but didn't. He made a mistake, it is unfortunate Rommel cannot give his post-war opinion on things such as Guderian did.

The thing about Hitler not being awoken, wouldn't have been a problem and Rommel moved the Panzers forward before D-Day. We're not talking June preparations, this was weeks before D-Day even happened. Rommel was mistaken in his thinking, Guderian was right.
Click to expand...

So you are suggesting that the Germans should have positioned their Panzers near the beaches all over the coasts of France? Or are you suggesting they knew in advance the Allied attack would be in Normandy rather than in Calaise as we know they really expected?

And had they been positioned as you describe, what would have saved them from Allied bombing? The Allies would surely have known exactly where they were and would have pulverized them with heavy bomber strikes.

=S=

Lunatic
 
The Germans thought that the invasion was to come at Calaise. The diversion army that Patton was in command of in England with the rubber and wooden tanks and stuff helped with that and the fact that the allies fed German agents with false intelegence.
 
10 Panzer Divisions were in France in June 1944. There is a road network running right across the northern coast of France, giving access to everywhere from Cherbourg to Calais.
Place those 10 Panzer Divisions behind the beaches, with easy access to the road network. Have you just tried to tell me that heavy bomber raids would be used on a Panzer division? Do you think I mean actually right behind the beaches? What makes you think they'll know about the 10 Panzer Divisions? They failed to pay attention to two SS Panzer Divisions in Holland September 1944.

I don't think you've read up on this. Only from the Allied point of view, if at all. I advise you to read Panzer Leader - Guderian and Panzer Battles - Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin (Ia to Rommel in Africa) both talk of D-Day and the German preparations. Both agree in the claim that Rommel was wrong.
 
I am not arguing that Rommel was wrong, but the fact that Rommel did not have control over his tanks. As for right behind the beaches probably not on the day of the invasion that would be too risky to the landing forces however if you put them there too far out in advance they would be an easy target out in the open. The Germans would not have been able to do so anyhow, they did not know exactly where the invasion was going to be.
 
The thing is, I'm saying right behind the beaches. I don't actually mean right there, behind the beaches over looking them. I mean easy access to the road network, 5 miles behind the beaches. No matter where the attack happened, the tanks could react in an instant. Instead on 6 June 21st Panzer Division had to drive several miles north, only to find the Caen De Canal (Pegasus) bridge had been captured by the British 6th Airborne. So, they had to turn back and go around the river and north past Caen itself. Had the tanks been behind the beaches in the first place, this wouldn't have happened. On top of that, two Panzer divisions were in teh South of France. They shouldn't have been there. Leave one for the supposed invasion, not two.
Rommel and Runstedt should have realised an invasion in the south was too risky over that distance. Guderian realised it.
 
Yes an to cover and invasion from the south was a mistake. I agree that the Panzer divisions should have been closer and yes that was a mistake whether it by Rommel or not but it still does not change the fact that Rommel did not have direct control over them in the first place.
 
It was his say to move them forward or not, before the invasion. If it wasn't, then Guderian wouldn't have gone to him. Rommel had control before 6th June, he had the chance to move them forward.
Hitler had control on the day but you can't move men OUT of combat when they would have been drawn into it by the Allies attack. So, Hitlers control would mean nothing.
 
Okay. I think he was a great commander, certainly one of the greatest in World War 2. But like all great men, he made mistakes. His mistakes are never brought to light because he is so famous.
Gen. Balck was probably the best panzer commander of the war, he rose from regimental commander to Army Group commander in just 4 years. When in command of the XLVIII Panzer Corps in Russia he encircled three Russian Armies before retreating due to lack of supply and reinforcment.

Other greats of the German military are Guderian, Manstein, Hoth, von Paulus.
 
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