Guns on Swiss Emils

Discussion in 'Weapons Systems Tech.' started by net_sailor, Jul 19, 2008.

  1. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

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    Hi

    I'm looking for info about fuselage machine guns installation in Swiss Bf 109E. I know that Emils were delivered unarmed. In Switzerland the a/c gots two Eidgenössische Waffenfabrik Flieger-Maschinengewehr 1929 (7.5x55mm Swiss) and two 20 mm Oerlikon FF-K Oe 37 cannon. What was exactly amount of ammunition per barrel? How the fuselage machine guns were fed? How the empty ammunition belt (non-disintegrating type) and cases were removed and where stored? There are any drawings or manuals for this system?

    Some pictures here:
    details
     
  2. Eric Decamps

    Eric Decamps New Member

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    The Swiss messerchmitts are Me E-3.
    You can find a specific manual about all his armament on one CD in the web of Luftfahrt-Archiv-Hafner. It's the "Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-1 und E-3 Schusswaffe" CD which is not very expensive (19 Euros).

    Best regards

    Eric
     
  3. Micdrow

    Micdrow “Archive”
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    Dont know if these will help either. Couple of pictures of the wing cannons from a Swiss Bf-109 from the book Avions #4 The Messerschmitt Bf-109 in Swiss Service.
     

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  4. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

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    Yes, it was Bf 109E-3 but with totally diffrerent guns arrangement. Especially the fuselage MG's were mounted symmetrically. I doubt that German's manuals covers Swiss gun confiuguration cause all a/c were delivered without guns.
     
  5. Eric Decamps

    Eric Decamps New Member

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    You have also the possibility to contact the conservator of the "Fliegermuseum of Düberdof" in swisserland.
    They have a lot of technical documents. Few years ago, I have taked interesting copies about the fuel injection system and supercharger of the DB 601.

    Eric
     
  6. Werter

    Werter New Member

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    Hello Net-Sailor

    I have you here some information and a picture in regard to the installation of the MG 29 in the Swiss Emils.

    The decision to mount the Swiss MG-29 instead of rechambering the german MG-17s to the swiss 7,5x55 round necessecited some severe changes to the weapon installation on the Emils.
    The original MG-17 had a distance of 340mm between the gun barrels, the MG 29 only 300mm, so the hood and the blast channels had to be changed.
    Also the MG 29 were installed without any stagger of the guns, this lead to further adaptions of the installation. The most severe change was that also the ammo boxes had to become much smaller, the original reason for the stagger for the MG-17 installation, and the load out was reduced to only 480 rounds per gun from the 1000 rounds per gun from the MG 17. The belt was made of disintegrating links, which were ejected from the airplane together with the cases.

    The whole installation had a lot of teething problems, which werent ever totally resolved. Stoppages caused by the feeding system and from blockages in the link ejection were very common troughout the service time of the Emils.

    In summary the installation of the MG-29 wasnt satisfactory at all, that was also the reason why the Me-109 Gustavs that were delivered during 1944 kept their original armament (2x MG131 1 x Mg 151/20) and the ammo was manufactured in Switzerland. Altough the electrical primers for the MG 131 Ammo had to be purchased from Germany because their manufacturing was a secret.

    All this information and the picture are from the Book:

    "Die Messerschmitt Me 109 in der Schweizer Flugwaffe
    -ein Stück Zeitgeschichte-"
    Author and publisher: Georg Hoch (ISBN 3 905404 35 4)


    Greetings Werter
     

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  7. HoHun

    HoHun Active Member

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    Hi Werter,

    >I have you here some information and a picture in regard to the installation of the MG 29 in the Swiss Emils.

    Thanks a lot, and welcome to the forum! :)

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
     
  8. kool kitty89

    kool kitty89 Well-Known Member

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    What was the difference between the Oerlikon FF-K Oe 37 and the Oerlikon FFF? (usu. just "Oerlikon FF")
     
  9. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

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    Hi Werter!
    Thanks for your answer.
    Could you help me with another question?
    I'm looking for photos of some Bf 109 G: J-703, J-706, J-707, J-709, J-710 and especially J-714 (G-14, capured German machine).

    KK, AFAIK there is no difference between FF-K Oe 37 and Oerlikon FF. Just manufacturer or military designation.
     
  10. Werter

    Werter New Member

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    Hello Net-sailor

    Sorry for the late answer, but I am pretty busy during the week. Anyway, here I have you some pictures of J-706, J-707 and J-714. Unfortunately I cant find any pictures of the other planes.

    After going trough my books again, I found some additional information in respect to the installation of the MG 29s in the Swiss Emils too.


    Grertings Werter
     

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  11. Werter

    Werter New Member

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    And here the scans from the Manual for the installation of the MG 29 :


    Werter
     

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  12. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

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    Very nice pictures! Thanks a lot Werter :D
     
  13. Werter

    Werter New Member

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    Hello Net-Sailor

    Glad to help out and having something to contribute to the forum. Anyway, checking the thread, I just saw I didnt upload one of the pictures.

    This is the only picture that I found of the J-714, still in its original Luftwaffe livery.

    As before, all pictures are from Georg Hoch`s book on the Swiss 109s.

    Regards

    Werter
     

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  14. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

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    Hi Werter!

    I heard there is J-703 picture on page 174 (among other planes) and J-710 on page 167 of Hoch's book. Could you check it out?
     
  15. Werter

    Werter New Member

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    Hello Net-Sailor

    Ooops, thats a real oversight of me. Your sources are correct, there is a whole page with four pictures on the J-710.......cant imagine how I could overlook that......:oops:

    In respect to the J-703, the plane is really on a pic on the indicated page. Altough the J-703 is just in the background barely visible behind a Hawker Seafury that was tested at that time.

    Anyway, I will be able to scan these pages only later this week, as my job keeps me pretty busy at the moment, but I will load them up anyway.

    Greetings Werter
     
  16. Werter

    Werter New Member

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    Hello Net-sailor

    Ahh, finally vacation!!:lol:

    Anyway, I had finaly the time to scan the pictures. And here they are.


    Best regards

    Werter
     

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  17. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

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    Well done!

    I see all Swiss Gustavs got the tall fins. I have read there were some troubles with wooden parts. I guess with horizontal stabilizer or elevator. Am I correct?
     
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