Hardest plane to take down in WW2?

FLYBOYJ · Feb 6, 2006

Lunatic said:
FLYBOYJ said:

Lunatic said:

Actually properly laminated wood holds up better against machine gun fire than aluminum. The down side is it is also heavier than metal.

Click to expand...

That depends on the type of aluminum structure. If you're talking skins, maybe, if you're talking main structures, wing attach points which are usually 7075 aluminum or even steel, no way....

Click to expand...

I'm talking about control surfaces such as ailerons, where aluminum skinning is streched over alluminum brackets of mimimal thickness.

But, even for the wings themselves, the Soviet's found that, barring fire, the wood usually was less susceptible to combat damage than the metal equivalent (example: Yak3 vs. Yak9).

Wood structures are easy to produce but hell to repair, especially in the field. to do a proper repair the surface has to be in a clean environment and sometimes during the curing of glues, you don't want moisture or dirt.

Aluminum will always offer a very flexible repair. You could patch aluminum holes almost anywhere and the training of personnel to accomplish sheet metal repairs are minimal. The thing to look at with wood, being organic is susceptible to many other defects not readily apparent until it too late, where aluminum is forgiving and actually "tells you" when its failing.

As you say "skinning stretched" over brackets (ribs) could range in thickness up to .040 depending on the aircraft. Its quite easy to repair them, especially if a round goes right through. Each manufacturer comes up with a "Structural Repair Manual" that provides guidance for most repairs and takes the guess work out for the mechanic repairing the aircraft.

I'd take aluminum any day, you don't have to worry about shrinkage, temperature related problems and dry rot which will eventually creep up on wood structures, especially in a harsh environment...

I've worked with both and all I have to say id wood sucks! I'd work with aluminum anyday and would believe it is the superior material to work with in a WW2 combat enviornment,unless you're stuck with nothing else!!!

Twitch · Feb 6, 2006

Smokey I agree the Frank and George were excellent aircraft and difficult to over come in a fight but NOTHING can take punnishment like a P-47

FLYBOYJ · Feb 8, 2006

P-47 battle damage

Robert Johnson's P-47

Gnomey · Feb 8, 2006

B-17 Battle Damage

More here: http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm

CurzonDax · Feb 8, 2006

The top picture's story is that this B-17 collided with a 109. The only thing holding the fuselage in one piece was the aft door. When the 17 got back to its base and the door was opened the fuselage collapsed. Now y'all know why I fly Boeings, NOT Airbus.

:{)

CurzonDax · Feb 8, 2006

What I think adds to the legendary toughness of US aircraft is in all of these nice Octopus or similar publication books and coffee table books that we ALL own (fess up folks for I own at least a dozen and they do have lots of pretty pictures) is that they always show US planes with the crew or whats left of them smiling around the damage. So it begs the question, for example, unless they were prublished in Signal which I have never seen an issue, where are the similar pics for Axis aircraft. I know that Willy made tough producats but we never see pics of this stuff at least here in the US.

:{)

Dogwalker · Feb 8, 2006

When an italian pilot came back with a so damaged aircraft, there was nothing to smile at.

AA fire on a SM-79 wooden wing.

DogW

syscom3 · Feb 8, 2006

Ive heard of P38's and A20's that ran into the masts on Japanese ships they were attacking, and flew back to base.

Magister · Feb 8, 2006

Jank said: "And of course, stresed aluminum skin over a skeletal structure also provides aditional structural strength that fabric does not."

That's right. Take two wing frames that are exactly the same. Cover one with fabric and the other with aluminum. The aluminum covered structure will be stronger.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 8, 2006

Magister said:
Jank said: "And of course, stresed aluminum skin over a skeletal structure also provides aditional structural strength that fabric does not."

That's right. Take two wing frames that are exactly the same. Cover one with fabric and the other with aluminum. The aluminum covered structure will be stronger.

For the most part yes - it depends on how the interior structure is designed and how the stress is transmitted through the structure.

Magister · Feb 8, 2006

Take a wing structure and cover it with the fabric of a Corsair's wings. Take that same wing structure and cover it with the aluminum of a P-47's wings. I think the aluminum wing will be stronger in every respect.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 8, 2006

Magister said:
Take a wing structure and cover it with the fabric of a Corsair's wings. Take that same wing structure and cover it with the aluminum of a P-47's wings. I think the aluminum wing will be stronger in every respect.

More than likely, but you're missing the point. Most of a semi-monocoque fuselage's strength or a conventional constructed wing (Ribs and spars) is dependent on the internal structure, not the outer skin, if I remember right it's like 30 - 70 on the average. Compare these two for example....

mosquitoman · Feb 8, 2006

I've heard of a Mossie taking the top of a ship's mast back in the bomb bay, this happened right at the end of the war

FLYBOYJ · Feb 8, 2006

mosquitoman said:
I've heard of a Mossie taking the top of a ship's mast back in the bomb bay, this happened right at the end of the war

Would not surprise me.

It all in the way the designers figured out the way to transfer the loads and stresses through out the structure...

syscom3 · Feb 8, 2006

Well I think the toughest airplanes were the B29 and B17.

Strongest fighter was the P47. The Corsair, while probably just as strong, didnt go through the ringer like the P47's in the ETO/MTO did.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 8, 2006

syscom3 said:
Well I think the toughest airplanes were the B29 and B17.

Strongest fighter was the P47. The Corsair, while probably just as strong, didnt go through the ringer like the P47's in the ETO/MTO did.

Agree....

Magister · Feb 8, 2006

http://www.p47pilots.com/cfm_Biographies.cfm?pageMode=VIEW&storyid=434

CHARLES D. MOHRLE, born April 12, 1921 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, grew up in Galveston, Texas and attended the University of Texas. Following Pearl Harbor he enlisted as an Aviation Cadet and was commissioned with the class of 43.E at Moore Field, Mission, Texas.

First assigned to the fighter base at Sarasota, Florida flying P-40's and later transferred to the 405th Fighter Group, 510th Squadron at Walterboro, South Carolina. Initially equipped with P-39's, the unit got its P-47's two months before assignment to the 9th Air Force in England.

Based at Christchurch, he flew bomber escort, interdiction and dive bomb missions until Normandy D-Day. After the invasion, the 405th crossed the Channel to a strip near St. Mer Eglise on the Cherbourg Peninsula. Flying close support to the 3rd Army, the unit moved across France. In the course of his 97 missions, Charles destroyed numerous tanks and other motorized weaponry along with rail equipment, bridges, artillery, ammunition dumps and personnel.

Near Manheim, Germany, his P-47 took 88mm direct hits in the left wing and engine. As might be expected of a Jug, the "Touch of Texas" kept flying despite the loss of three cylinders, a huge portion of wing and a hydraulic fluid fire. Without injury to its pilot, the Jug was landed on one wheel in a dirt field behind Allied lines. And on twelve other missions his P-47 absorbed direct hits from ground fire, plus a collection of small arms ammunition that was removed from the ship.

Returning to the States, he was assigned to the air-to-air gunnery school at Yuma, Arizona where he flew target fighters and checked out in several bombers. Flying an RP-63, he was shot down by 30 caliber fire from a B-17, landing dead-stick without injury or aircraft damage.

The 405th received a Presidential Unit Citation. Charles was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and Air Medal with 15 clusters.

Released from duty in 1945, as a captain, he entered the graphic arts field, eventually owning an advertising agency in Dallas, Tex- as. He married Dorothy Onley in 1948 and has one son, Charles Michael.

CurzonDax · Feb 9, 2006

My four would be the B-17, which reported gave Saburo Sakai "fits", the crowd favs Corsair and 'Bolt, and the Il-2 which many of us seem to have forgotten about.

:{)

Jank · Feb 9, 2006

great story magister

plan_D · Feb 9, 2006

I think all the "veteran" members on this remember the story posted by Eric (I think) about the "Jugs" flying through trees to discover a German supply dump in the Ardennes.

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