He-111: any growth potential?

[dedalos]

Any discution of improved He 111 is pointless. He 111 was totaly obselete for the Western front by the end 1940. Structural and aerodynamic limitations stop any serious discution. I believe he 111 had a limit in max speed of 480 km/h regadless the available power
In my opinion germans had the following options regarding medium bombers
Best solution
Ju 288 with jumo 222 or even DB610
Historicaly realistic option
Do 217 with 2x DB 610s or 4x jumo 211 J or P
Ju 88S with de rated Jumos 222

Dedalos crazy idea
Ju 88 with 3x Jumo 211P

In my opinion 2x Jumos 213, 2 x Db603 or 2x BMW 801 were absolutely not enough to provide competitive performance for the ju 88 (as a bomber) and especially Do 217
Only the Me 410 could be an excellent attack aircraft (not bomber) with those engines . Additionaly every single Jumo 213 and Db 603 should be used for Air superiority Fw 190s and BMW 801 for Fw 190F G

 

[tomo pauk]

How about Ju-288 with DB 603?

 

[dedalos]

How about Ju-288 with DB 603?

I suppose you mean 4x db603
Most propably would be excellent but again DB 603 should go to fighter production

 

[Shortround6]

The He 111 wasn't "totals obsolete for the Western front by the end 1940" any more than the Wellington and Whitley were obsolete.

It wasn't a day bomber on the Western Front but then nobody had a day bomber on the Western Front that didn't require LOTS of escorts. British were still using Whitleys on occasion in the Spring of 1942.

Instead of improving what they had the Germans frittered away man hours by the hundreds of thousands on such pie in the sky dreams as the Ju 288 and Ju 222 engines.

The HE 111 didn't even get the same top turret as the Do 217 got until almost a year later. And it was a pretty poor turret when it did show up. There is no real reason the He 111 couldn't have kept up with the Wellington as far as progress goes or at least stayed close.
maybe not a world beater but a solid, reliable aircraft that could perform a variety of missions.

leaving it stuck with 1940 engines and 1940 defensive armament is what helped make it obsolete.

And plenty of bombers served until the end of the war without exceeding 480kph in level flight at any altitude, including ALL late model American B-25s and B-26s for medium bombers.

 

[tomo pauk]

Nope, 2 x DB 603.
The Jumo 213A, once in production will supplement the DB 603 (so early 1944 sees the 190D, not late 1944), the Ju-88/188 receives the BMW 801 on a more elaborate scale.

 

[wiking85]

Any discution of improved He 111 is pointless. He 111 was totaly obselete for the Western front by the end 1940. Structural and aerodynamic limitations stop any serious discution. I believe he 111 had a limit in max speed of 480 km/h regadless the available power
In my opinion germans had the following options regarding medium bombers
Best solution
Ju 288 with jumo 222 or even DB610
Historicaly realistic option
Do 217 with 2x DB 610s or 4x jumo 211 J or P
Ju 88S with de rated Jumos 222

Dedalos crazy idea
Ju 88 with 3x Jumo 211P

In my opinion 2x Jumos 213, 2 x Db603 or 2x BMW 801 were absolutely not enough to provide competitive performance for the ju 88 (as a bomber) and especially Do 217
Only the Me 410 could be an excellent attack aircraft (not bomber) with those engines . Additionaly every single Jumo 213 and Db 603 should be used for Air superiority Fw 190s and BMW 801 for Fw 190F G

Well, the He111H22 had the Jumo 213 a cruise speed of 230mph and a range of 1800 miles (the Jumo 211 series had a cruise speed of 190 mph and a range of 1400 miles). Its better, but not good enough

 

[dedalos]

Nope, 2 x DB 603.
The Jumo 213A, once in production will supplement the DB 603 (so early 1944 sees the 190D, not late 1944), the Ju-88/188 receives the BMW 801 on a more elaborate scale.

I dont understant tomo pauk. A ju 288 with just 2 db603 ? Even with c3 fuel would be little better than the Do 217M

 

[wiking85]

How about Ju-288 with DB 603?

Given its weight increase it wouldn't be as fast as the Ju188 with the same engine. Perhaps if the DB603N and sufficient C3 fuel were available it would be worth it. The Jumo 213 was with C3 fuel and other improvements bringing it up to 2000hp or more.

 

[dedalos]

The He 111 wasn't "totals obsolete for the Western front by the end 1940" any more than the Wellington and Whitley were obsolete.
These bombers were also obsolete
It wasn't a day bomber on the Western Front but then nobody had a day bomber on the Western Front that didn't require LOTS of escorts. British were still using Whitleys on occasion in the Spring of 1942.

Instead of improving what they had the Germans frittered away man hours by the hundreds of thousands on such pie in the sky dreams as the Ju 288 and Ju 222 engines.
Both projects were very good. The ju288 was so excellent that should be put in production even with DB 610s
The HE 111 didn't even get the same top turret as the Do 217 got until almost a year later. And it was a pretty poor turret when it did show up. There is no real reason the He 111 couldn't have kept up with the Wellington as far as progress goes or at least stayed close.
maybe not a world beater but a solid, reliable aircraft that could perform a variety of missions.
Solid, reliable aircraft that could perform variety of missions= Ju88S
leaving it stuck with 1940 engines and 1940 defensive armament is what helped make it obsolete.
Neither Jumo 211J nor better wepons would make noticeably better the He 111.

And plenty of bombers served until the end of the war without exceeding 480kph in level flight at any altitude, including ALL late model American B-25s and B-26s for medium bombers.

The only reason that B25 and B26 operated in 1944/45 were because of the thousands American fighters. Imagine that germany ,in that period, instead of the late He 111s, had B25s and B26s.Would be any diference? On the other hand a ju288 or do217 with DB610 would be invulnerable on the Eastern front and very hard to intercept night bombers on the Western front

 

[Shortround6]

I think we have different versions of reality.

If the Wellington and Whitley were obsolete in 1940 what were the British (or Germans or Americans) using in squadron service in 1940 or even early 1941 that made those bomber obsolete?

Hint; "The first three Stirlings flew a mission on the night of 10/11 February 1941"

Both projects were very good. The ju288 was so excellent that should be put in production even with DB 610s

Well, the DB 610s don't show up in any numbers until the winter/spring of 1943 at which point it is pretty much too late.
The Ju 222 was a disaster of epic proportions. The JU 288 was a long saga of changing dimensions and weights, changing performance estimates and a succession of prototypes plagued with engine failures and crashes.

Solid, reliable aircraft that could perform variety of missions= Ju88S

Great, another vundar plane that doesn't show up until the Fall of 1943. If the He 111 was obsolete in 1940 and the JU-88S doesn't show up for three more years what does the Luftwaffe use in the meantime?

Neither Jumo 211J nor better wepons would make noticeably better the He 111.

We don't know, in part, because they didn't try. Reread earlier posts in the thread.

DO 217E cruised around 30mph faster than a HE 111 (which was not enough to keep it out of trouble) and had ceiling about 2500ft higher while using engines about 250-300hp more powerful each depending on altitude.

On the other hand a ju288 or do217 with DB610 would be invulnerable on the Eastern front and very hard to intercept night bombers on the Western front

Do 217 with DB 610s wouldn't have to worry about interceptors, getting of the ground would be a feat in itself. those 4.5 meter propellers either need to be cropped (loosing thrust) or wider wing center section to have props clear fuselage and longer landing gear so props don't hit the ground. The extra 500-600KG per engine (dry weight) over BMW 801s and DB 603s is really going to cut into the payload (bombs/fuel) unless you really redesign the plane. Figure and few hundred more kg per engine for the bigger props, radiators and oil coolers over DB 603 or Jumo 213 engines.
The JU 288 was supposed to weigh about 14-15,000lbs more than a DO 217 ( so was the DO 317)

 

[dedalos]

I think we have different versions of reality.
We just have different way of thinking
If the Wellington and Whitley were obsolete in 1940 what were the British (or Germans or Americans) using in squadron service in 1940 or even early 1941 that made those bomber obsolete?
No bomber at either side was satisfactory at that period with perhaps exception the Ju88A
Hint; "The first three Stirlings flew a mission on the night of 10/11 February 1941"


Well, the DB 610s don't show up in any numbers until the winter/spring of 1943 at which point it is pretty much too late.
The Ju 222 was a disaster of epic proportions. The JU 288 was a long saga of changing dimensions and weights, changing performance estimates and a succession of prototypes plagued with engine failures and crashes.
Neither Project were technicaly disaster. And both could really make a difference. Disastrous was the way RLM controled and directed those programmes, also the political consiracies didnt help.


Great, another vundar plane that doesn't show up until the Fall of 1943. If the He 111 was obsolete in 1940 and the JU-88S doesn't show up for three more years what does the Luftwaffe use in the meantime?
Ju 88S was not by any means wundar plane. The S-0 was just a Ju88A streamlined but still powered by Jumos 211. If common sense had prevailed S-0 should be in production since the beginning.


We don't know, in part, because they didn't try. Reread earlier posts in the thread.

DO 217E cruised around 30mph faster than a HE 111 (which was not enough to keep it out of trouble) and had ceiling about 2500ft higher while using engines about 250-300hp more powerful each depending on altitude.
Even B17s with their massive defentive armament were not able to survive by themselves fighter attacks. The only effective defence (except of course thousands friendly fighters) was High Cruise speed


Do 217 with DB 610s wouldn't have to worry about interceptors, getting of the ground would be a feat in itself. those 4.5 meter propellers either need to be cropped (loosing thrust) or wider wing center section to have props clear fuselage and longer landing gear so props don't hit the ground. The extra 500-600KG per engine (dry weight) over BMW 801s and DB 603s is really going to cut into the payload (bombs/fuel) unless you really redesign the plane. Figure and few hundred more kg per engine for the bigger props, radiators and oil coolers over DB 603 or Jumo 213 engines.
The JU 288 was supposed to weigh about 14-15,000lbs more than a DO 217 ( so was the DO 317)

Details. Thats why engineers have a job. But the concept was very sound. Besides, dornier proposed something very similar, the Do317B

 

[Vincenzo]

He 111 H-16 had a range of 2170 km at 365 km/h at 5 km, in imperial 1348 land miles at 227 mph at 16,400 feet
this would be with 211F

 

[Shortround6]

We seem to be getting into the rather flexible abilities of some of the German aircraft.

The Ju-88A-1 had some rather severe limitations as a bomber in 1940. Basically it had some real problems with range and payload. Lots of range with little or no bomb load or a fair (but not great) bomb load with little range. It also wasn't all that fast. Faster than a Whitley or Wellington to be sure but only 10-15mph faster than a Blenheim and that is not enough to keep it out of trouble. The A-4 was significantly better But the "improvements" also meant an increase of over 2500kg in empty weight.

The big British twins and the HE 111 were slower but could carry much greater loads over longer ranges. Granted they often couldn't find the right city without special navigation aids but that problem was not the fault of the engines or airframes.

Neither Project were technicaly disaster. And both could really make a difference. Disastrous was the way RLM controled and directed those programmes, also the political consiracies didnt help.

There were around 270-280 Ju 222 engines built and they powered 0 service aircraft. The Few prototype aircraft that used them suffered long waits for airworthy examples, frequent engine failures/replacements and later prototypes in the same series fitted with lower powered alternate engines in order to get some sort of air time. Granted the changing specifications did not help but that is among worst records for an aircraft engine that I know of. A few Russian engines might rival it (M-106?).

And lets consider the Avro Manchester, IF the engines and airframe had lived up to "projections" it would have been the greatest bomber of 1940/41.

Ju 88S was not by any means wundar plane. The S-0 was just a Ju88A streamlined but still powered by Jumos 211. If common sense had prevailed S-0 should be in production since the beginning.

Most sources say the S-0 and S-1 used BMW 801 radials which makes it a bit hard to be in production since the beginning. We also run into the bomb load vs range problem again. The S-0 still had the ventral gondola according to some sources. Or perhaps it was not always fitted? However the S-1 lost it. We then hit the bomb load problem with early Ju 88s aircraft not having any external racks for streamlining and the rear bomb bay housing a fuel tank leaving only the forward bomb bay. The Later S-1s filled the rear bay with the GM 1 power boost system which certainly helped them become fast bombers but meant the bomb load gets even more iffy. With the forward bay holding bombs (ten 143lb bombs) the rear bay holding the GM 1 the wing tanks were good for 2 hours and 45 minutes at 289mph. If they used the GM 1 range drops to ????? and most performance figures are for the aircraft clean (no bombs). Granted it could carry a pair of 1000kg bombs on external racks but then it doesn't come close to hitting those often listed speeds.

Even B17s with their massive defentive armament were not able to survive by themselves fighter attacks. The only effective defence (except of course thousands friendly fighters) was High Cruise speed

Well, in many areas you only needed hundreds of fighters in 1941/42. Or maybe even dozens. You also half to be able to reach the target. Being able to flit through the enemies defenses is all well and good but if you have to turn around and go home before reaching the target the whole thing is rather pointless.

Better navigation (radio beams, etc) allows bombing by night which was also a pretty good defense even if not perfect. Trying to build bombers that could outrun fighters didn't work all that well historically with only a few exceptions. The fighters could always devote a higher percentage of their gross weight to the powerplant. Trying to intercept 2-6 Mosquitos is one thing, trying to intercept 300-600 attacking the same city in an hour or less might have not worked quite so well.

Details. Thats why engineers have a job. But the concept was very sound. Besides, dornier proposed something very similar, the Do317B

Lets see, we can't modify the He 111 by any substantial amount but we can take a Do 217 and add several thousand KG of power plant, change the wing center section (at the least) and modify all kinds of other parts and that is merely "details".

A Do 217 went around 35-36,000lbs max, Proposed weight for the Do 317 was 52,900lbs max. It used a different cockpit, different fuselage, different tail and a different wing to go along with the different engines. That is a lot of details.

You are not going to turn the He 111 into a 350-400mph airplane but since ALL the engineering time and manpower to build ALL the prototypes and even a fair number of the supposed replacements (Including some of the He 177) was pretty much wasted a modest improvement might have been worthwhile. The Halifax changed from Merlin XXs to Hercules engines and changed the vertical fins and the loss rate per 1000 missions dropped almost in half (there may have been a few situational changes as well).
Some other British planes suffered rather high loss rates for rather stupid reasons. Underpowered and having trim/flap/landing gear controls in awkward cockpit locations means a higher than necessary accident rate. An extra 10-15% power per engine can mean the difference between a twin engine plane getting home on one engine or not.
You don't need invulnerability, you need to keep the losses to an acceptable level to continue the campaign. Russians claimed the IL-2 with rear gun had lower losses than the single seaters. Plenty of the two seaters were shot down.

 

[GrauGeist]

About the Ju88S:
Development started in late '42 and finished airframes were starting to appear late '43.
In an attempt to increase it's speed, items that created drag were were removed, such as dive brakes, external bomb racks as well as replacing the greenhouse nose with a smooth transparent nose similar to the fighter variant. It was powered by the BMW801D, producing 1,700hp each.

The Ju88S-1 was an attempt to get even more speed out of the S variant. To accomplish this, more weight was eliminated by removing the ventral gondola, reducing the rear dorsal twin to a single MG131, removing the armor and reducing the crew to three. The engines used on this variant were the BMW801G with a GM1 nitrous system. These units began production in late 1943. It might be noted that with all of these improvements, the avarage speed gained was only about 8 miles an hour.

Then came the S-2 with slight changes. One of which, was the removal of the GM1 system and the addition of an enlarged bomb bay. It also had BMW801TJ engines with turbo-superchargers. Production of this very limited variant started in spring of 1944.

The last variant, the S-3 had the Jumo213A, GM1 and turbo-superchargers. Very limited numbers entered service in late '44

 

[GregP]

I think there was potential. Recall they made the lancaster from the 2-engine Manchester and the Boeing 747 400 is 47 feet longer than the Boeing 747 SP.

So, it is entirely possible they could have added a 25 foot bomb bay and two or even 4 more engines and made a whopping big bomber from the He 111 building block. The real question is whether or not it would be better than some newer, fresh sheet design. Without some serious calculations and thinking, the answer may be elusive. But it was certianly possible to add bomb load, engines, range, and armor ... had the incentive been high enough.

 

[Shortround6]

They may very well have not been able to turn the He 111 into a "super" bomber but they essentially ignored it while working on it's replacements. Trouble was the replacements introduction into service was months away, years away and never going to happen depending on which replacement. This forced the continued production or ramping back up of he 111 production to fill in the gaps. A bit like the continued production of the Bf 110 to cover the Me 210 fiasco. Trouble was the He 111 never got better engines (until way late) or better armament like the later versions of the Bf 110 got.
The B-17 may have needed a strong fighter escort but even in late 1944/early 1945 they weren't pulling very many guns out of the B-17s to increase bomb load or range.

 

[Denniss]

Ju 88 never had twin upper rear MG 131, at some time they had two MG 81 but later used single MG 81Z or MG 131.
In the 88 you couldn't use the rear bay for fuel unless the main bay has a fuel tank too.
Main bay held 18x50kg bombs, rear bay 10x50kg.
Ju 88S retained the central-mounted external racks, underwing stuff was deleted. I couldn't find references to complete removal of armor. Plans in the S-1 manual suggest they could use internal bombs with two 900l droptanks.

 

[GregP]

Good point SHortround, they DID pretty much ignore the He 111. But the potential for more was and is there, had anyone been interested, and I thought that was the question. The Germans modified the heck out of the Ju 88 and modified the heck out of the Bf 110.

For some reason the He 111 was designed, matured a bit, and then just built and deployed with seemingly little to no thought for actual improvement. Perhaps they felt it was doing the job they expected of it? I don't know, but you are certainly spot on about it not being modified much.

 

[GrauGeist]

Ju 88 never had twin upper rear MG 131, at some time they had two MG 81 but later used single MG 81Z or MG 131.

My ipad jumped the text when I was editing, it should have (and now does) state:
"reducing the rear dorsal twin to a single MG131"

So regardless of the MG type, the quantity of the rear cockpit mounted defensive MGs were reduced to a single.

In the 88 you couldn't use the rear bay for fuel unless the main bay has a fuel tank too.
Main bay held 18x50kg bombs, rear bay 10x50kg.

Sorry to disagree here, but the S-1 did have a GM1 tank fitted in the rear internal bay. I should have also mentioned that along with the dive brakes being removed on this variant, the automatic dive recovery mechanism was removed and the tail de-icers were removed as well.

Ju 88S retained the central-mounted external racks, underwing stuff was deleted. I couldn't find references to complete removal of armor. Plans in the S-1 manual suggest they could use internal bombs with two 900l droptanks.

The S-2 had the bomb bay enlarged with a plywood blister that allowed a semi-internal load AND the addition of extra fuel tanks.

By the time they were down to the S-2 and S-3 variants, they were grasping at straws trying to make the Ju88 immune from the Allied fighters...it just wasn't going to happen, no matter what they tried

 

[Denniss]

GM-1 is no fuel, fuel from the rear tank was supposed to be transfered to the center tank and from there distributed to the engine feeder tanks. These tanks could be rather quickly exchanged for bombs. GM-1 installation required additional piping to be installed.
BTW there was never a turbo-charged engine in the Ju 88S, neither the 801J nor the non-turbo Jumo 213E were available in early/mid 44.