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I suppose you mean 4x db603How about Ju-288 with DB 603?
Any discution of improved He 111 is pointless. He 111 was totaly obselete for the Western front by the end 1940. Structural and aerodynamic limitations stop any serious discution. I believe he 111 had a limit in max speed of 480 km/h regadless the available power
In my opinion germans had the following options regarding medium bombers
Best solution
Ju 288 with jumo 222 or even DB610
Historicaly realistic option
Do 217 with 2x DB 610s or 4x jumo 211 J or P
Ju 88S with de rated Jumos 222
Dedalos crazy idea
Ju 88 with 3x Jumo 211P
In my opinion 2x Jumos 213, 2 x Db603 or 2x BMW 801 were absolutely not enough to provide competitive performance for the ju 88 (as a bomber) and especially Do 217
Only the Me 410 could be an excellent attack aircraft (not bomber) with those engines . Additionaly every single Jumo 213 and Db 603 should be used for Air superiority Fw 190s and BMW 801 for Fw 190F G
Nope, 2 x DB 603.
The Jumo 213A, once in production will supplement the DB 603 (so early 1944 sees the 190D, not late 1944), the Ju-88/188 receives the BMW 801 on a more elaborate scale.
How about Ju-288 with DB 603?
The only reason that B25 and B26 operated in 1944/45 were because of the thousands American fighters. Imagine that germany ,in that period, instead of the late He 111s, had B25s and B26s.Would be any diference? On the other hand a ju288 or do217 with DB610 would be invulnerable on the Eastern front and very hard to intercept night bombers on the Western frontThe He 111 wasn't "totals obsolete for the Western front by the end 1940" any more than the Wellington and Whitley were obsolete.
These bombers were also obsolete
It wasn't a day bomber on the Western Front but then nobody had a day bomber on the Western Front that didn't require LOTS of escorts. British were still using Whitleys on occasion in the Spring of 1942.
Instead of improving what they had the Germans frittered away man hours by the hundreds of thousands on such pie in the sky dreams as the Ju 288 and Ju 222 engines.
Both projects were very good. The ju288 was so excellent that should be put in production even with DB 610s
The HE 111 didn't even get the same top turret as the Do 217 got until almost a year later. And it was a pretty poor turret when it did show up. There is no real reason the He 111 couldn't have kept up with the Wellington as far as progress goes or at least stayed close.
maybe not a world beater but a solid, reliable aircraft that could perform a variety of missions.
Solid, reliable aircraft that could perform variety of missions= Ju88S
leaving it stuck with 1940 engines and 1940 defensive armament is what helped make it obsolete.
Neither Jumo 211J nor better wepons would make noticeably better the He 111.
And plenty of bombers served until the end of the war without exceeding 480kph in level flight at any altitude, including ALL late model American B-25s and B-26s for medium bombers.
Well, the DB 610s don't show up in any numbers until the winter/spring of 1943 at which point it is pretty much too late.Both projects were very good. The ju288 was so excellent that should be put in production even with DB 610s
Solid, reliable aircraft that could perform variety of missions= Ju88S
Neither Jumo 211J nor better wepons would make noticeably better the He 111.
On the other hand a ju288 or do217 with DB610 would be invulnerable on the Eastern front and very hard to intercept night bombers on the Western front
Details. Thats why engineers have a job. But the concept was very sound. Besides, dornier proposed something very similar, the Do317BI think we have different versions of reality.
We just have different way of thinking
If the Wellington and Whitley were obsolete in 1940 what were the British (or Germans or Americans) using in squadron service in 1940 or even early 1941 that made those bomber obsolete?
No bomber at either side was satisfactory at that period with perhaps exception the Ju88A
Hint; "The first three Stirlings flew a mission on the night of 10/11 February 1941"
Well, the DB 610s don't show up in any numbers until the winter/spring of 1943 at which point it is pretty much too late.
The Ju 222 was a disaster of epic proportions. The JU 288 was a long saga of changing dimensions and weights, changing performance estimates and a succession of prototypes plagued with engine failures and crashes.
Neither Project were technicaly disaster. And both could really make a difference. Disastrous was the way RLM controled and directed those programmes, also the political consiracies didnt help.
Great, another vundar plane that doesn't show up until the Fall of 1943. If the He 111 was obsolete in 1940 and the JU-88S doesn't show up for three more years what does the Luftwaffe use in the meantime?
Ju 88S was not by any means wundar plane. The S-0 was just a Ju88A streamlined but still powered by Jumos 211. If common sense had prevailed S-0 should be in production since the beginning.
We don't know, in part, because they didn't try. Reread earlier posts in the thread.
DO 217E cruised around 30mph faster than a HE 111 (which was not enough to keep it out of trouble) and had ceiling about 2500ft higher while using engines about 250-300hp more powerful each depending on altitude.
Even B17s with their massive defentive armament were not able to survive by themselves fighter attacks. The only effective defence (except of course thousands friendly fighters) was High Cruise speed
Do 217 with DB 610s wouldn't have to worry about interceptors, getting of the ground would be a feat in itself. those 4.5 meter propellers either need to be cropped (loosing thrust) or wider wing center section to have props clear fuselage and longer landing gear so props don't hit the ground. The extra 500-600KG per engine (dry weight) over BMW 801s and DB 603s is really going to cut into the payload (bombs/fuel) unless you really redesign the plane. Figure and few hundred more kg per engine for the bigger props, radiators and oil coolers over DB 603 or Jumo 213 engines.
The JU 288 was supposed to weigh about 14-15,000lbs more than a DO 217 ( so was the DO 317)
There were around 270-280 Ju 222 engines built and they powered 0 service aircraft. The Few prototype aircraft that used them suffered long waits for airworthy examples, frequent engine failures/replacements and later prototypes in the same series fitted with lower powered alternate engines in order to get some sort of air time. Granted the changing specifications did not help but that is among worst records for an aircraft engine that I know of. A few Russian engines might rival it (M-106?).Neither Project were technicaly disaster. And both could really make a difference. Disastrous was the way RLM controled and directed those programmes, also the political consiracies didnt help.
Ju 88S was not by any means wundar plane. The S-0 was just a Ju88A streamlined but still powered by Jumos 211. If common sense had prevailed S-0 should be in production since the beginning.
Even B17s with their massive defentive armament were not able to survive by themselves fighter attacks. The only effective defence (except of course thousands friendly fighters) was High Cruise speed
Details. Thats why engineers have a job. But the concept was very sound. Besides, dornier proposed something very similar, the Do317B
My ipad jumped the text when I was editing, it should have (and now does) state:Ju 88 never had twin upper rear MG 131, at some time they had two MG 81 but later used single MG 81Z or MG 131.
Sorry to disagree here, but the S-1 did have a GM1 tank fitted in the rear internal bay. I should have also mentioned that along with the dive brakes being removed on this variant, the automatic dive recovery mechanism was removed and the tail de-icers were removed as well.In the 88 you couldn't use the rear bay for fuel unless the main bay has a fuel tank too.
Main bay held 18x50kg bombs, rear bay 10x50kg.
The S-2 had the bomb bay enlarged with a plywood blister that allowed a semi-internal load AND the addition of extra fuel tanks.Ju 88S retained the central-mounted external racks, underwing stuff was deleted. I couldn't find references to complete removal of armor. Plans in the S-1 manual suggest they could use internal bombs with two 900l droptanks.