He 177 Specifications?

[bryce]

Hi guys, im wondering if any of you out there know what the accurate specifications for a He 177 would be?

I have been doing some surfing on the net and looking though some books and have found some big discrepancies?

Its max bomb load seems to vary between 1000kg to 6000kg?

While it's top speed seems to vary from 295mph to 350mph?

If anybody could help me out that would be great!!

 

[Gnomey]

Warbirds Resource Group - LRG Annex - Heinkel He 177 Greif "Griffon"

Typenblatt
Baureihen: A,B,V
z.B.Typ: Verwendungszweck:
He 177 A-3 Bomber
He 177 A-5
He 177 A-7
He 177 B-0 Bomber (4 Motoren)

Werte am Beispiel von:
He 177 A-3
Länge: 22,02 m
Spannweite: 31,44 m
Höhe: 6,70 m
Besatzung: 6
Motor: DB 606
Leistung: 2 x 2700 PS
Vmax: 480 km/h
Reichweite: 3700 km
Gipfelhöhe: 8800 m
Bewaffnung: 1 x MG/FF
2 x MG 131
1 x MG 81
Luftwaffe [LuftArchiv.de - Das Archiv der Deutschen Luftwaffe] 2.WK

 

[bryce]

Ok...so going by this link the He 177 has...

A top speed of 295mph
And a bomb capacity of 1800kg

Does this sound about right?

 

[delcyros]

Payload, speed range do correspond to each other.
You cannot expect a max. payload with max. speed.

The MAX. payload for the He-177A5 is 7200 Kg of bombs inside the bomb chamber.
Usual configuration was somehwat lower:
either
A) 48 X 70 Kg bombs (3360 Kg / 7405 lbs total)
or
B) 10 X 500 kg bombs (5000 Kg / 11020 lbs total)
or
C) 6 X 1000 Kg bombs (6000 Kg / 13224 lbs total)
or
D) 2 X 2500 Kg bombs (5000 Kg / 11020 lbs total)
or
E) 1 X 7200 Kg bomb (?) (some planes only, 15869 lbs total)
or

(Note that A)-D) is also true for the He-177A3)

If the bomb chamber was empty, the He-177A5/U could also carry under the wings:
2 Hs 293 + 1 Hs293 remotely controlled missiles under the fuselage
or
2 Hs 294 + 1 Hs 294 remotely controlled glide bombs under the fuselage
or
2 PC 1400 + 1 PC 1400 gliding bomb under the fuselage
or
2 torpedoes + 2 torpedoes under the fuselage

As You see, the average payload of the He-177A5 levelled somewhere between 3t. and 6t., depending on mission requirements.

Now to Max. performances, such as service ceiling (WITHOUT PAYLOAD, the -A5 had 7000m service ceiling at max. payload achieved during missions) and max.speed and range(again without payload):
He-177A3 with two DB 606: 9000m----480 Km/h---------3700 Km-------(298 mph for 2300 ml.)
He-177A5 with two DB 610: 8800m----440 Km/h---------3650 Km-------(273 mph for 2267 ml.)
He-177A7 with two DB610A/B: 9400m--540 Km/h--------3700 Km-------(335 mph for 2300 ml.)



The He-177A3 was the first serial variant to be delivered in larger numbers to LuftwaffeBomber Gruppen. The very first 15 planes still had DB 606A/B with 2700 hp, which were very sensitive to cooling issues, later units had 2900 hp powerplants.
The He-177A5 was the major production model with a somewhat underpowered DB 610, which in turn seemed to be less prone to inflame (it still remained an issue).
The He-177A7 had furtherly improved powerplants and a larger wing area, which should help to improve range and speed figures altough only few A7 left assembling halls.

These datas come from original Luftwaffe docs analysed by:
H.J. Nowarra, Dokumente der Deutschen Luftrüstung 1933-1945, Vol. 2, 3rd edition (Koblenz 1993).

 

[Denniss]

Bomb load was at about 7 tons for the A-5. the A-5 was capable of reaching 350 mph and even more if using a shallow dive (as they used to do on bombing missions agains the UK)

 

[delcyros]

Bomb load was at about 7 tons for the A-5. the A-5 was capable of reaching 350 mph and even more if using a shallow dive (as they used to do on bombing missions agains the UK)

What are Your sources that the A5 could go 350 mp/h in level flight? I am very sceptical about this, esspeccially in loaden condition.
They actually used shallow dive on their attacks on London in 1944. From 7000 m altitude with 7 t. payload (2 PC 1000 under the wings + bombbay) they dived a shallow path at constant 650-680 Km/h (403-422 mph) in order to avoid UK nightfighters. In turn the He-177 suffered fewer casualties on this suicide raid than any other Luftwaffe bomber.
I estimate that the rugged airframe, modified to dive ability, made this possible.

 

[bryce]

Thanks for all the info!
That was fantastic!

I was also very sceptical that a He 177 could go 350 mp/h in level flight, I first saw it here...

Heinkel He 177 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[delcyros]

If You trace that 350 mp/h figure down it comes from a He-177 Schiffer book. Those Schiffer books have never been reputated for reliability altough in this very topic they were correct. However, there is something different:
The 350 mp/h were flown at "Erhöhte Notleistung"-powersetting (something like WEP + injection. Only suitable for less than a minute in DB 610´s without risking an engine failure or worser: engine fire) in level flight by an He-177AV prototype stripped down from defensive armement and without payload except for minimum fuel load. So this figure isn´t represantative for the He-177 in usual bomber configuartion.
The He-177A5, the mostly used bomber variant had a top speed of 440 Km/h (273 mp/h) sustainable for 30 min.+ at "Steig- und Kampfleistung"-powersetting (100%). Using the "Start- und Notleistungs"- powersetting (WEP or 110%) the He-177A5 could be accelerated to 488 Km/h (303 mp/h) max in level flight. This speed was flown at Rechlin during several testflights with defensive armement but without bombs at 3/4 fuel load (for normal range).

Hope, this helps.

 

[Soren]

A truly great bomber.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i don't see how such a failure can be called great, yes the idea was good and a lot of the figures do suggest she could have been great but at a time when the LW needed fighters and with reliability issues like hers i wouldn't call her a great............

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to go with Lanc here Soren. I think the He-177 was a great idea and a good design but here engines were ****. Those coupled engines were a failure and caused most of the problems the He-177 had.

 

[Gnomey]

Yep, the ones with four engines would of worked better but never entered service in any numbers if at all.

 

[delcyros]

Such an opinion shouldn´t be used unreflected.
Most problems referrede by You belong to the He-177A3, which enetered service with DB-609 and DB 606, both engines were prone to engine fire (this problem never was solved but reduced later by a significant degree). The He-177A5 with DB 610 entering service late in 1943 was a greatly improved He-177. A lot of improvements were given to cooling issues for the engines (resulting in a power limitation and a somehow heavier but more reliable engine). Problem was that KG 40 and KG "Hindenburg" received only few A5 because many A3 were still servicable. During the catastrophic raid against London (operation Steinbock or Baby Blitz)with an average loss rate of 60% for each type used (Ju-88, Ju-188, He-111, Do-217), the He-177A5 which participated got a loss rate well below 10%, making them the best bomber used in this catastrophic raid (indeed this sortie was it´s last success in the west). The end for the He-177 came in the 3rd quarter of 44, when high grade fuel wasn´t avaiable in the numbers needed to operate a whole Geschwader.
I would rather conclude that by early 44, the He-177 was the technical most powerful bomber of the Luftwaffe. This seems to be confirmed by post war tests on He-177A5 and one He-177A7, which turned out to be impressive for the RAF.
In any event, it wasn´t the weapon needed most by the Luftwaffe in this timeframe with hindsight 20/20. So ok- but it was no failure technically (at least in the developed A5 submodel, the A3 was crap,hands down)

 

[Soren]

I agree completely Delcyros.

Lanc, Adler and Gnomey, I partially agree with you as-well as the early He-177 did suffer this problem to quite a severe degree, however it was lessened later on.

The reason I call it great, although its service at the time wasn't needed, is because of its huge bomb-load capability, speed, dive-bombing capability, range and the ability to launch the Fritz X with great accuracy. The engine fires of the early versions is I admit a big "NO NO" though.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Like I said the design had great potential but overall it was a failure due to the engine problems of the earlier aircraft it never got to prove itself. I know the later varients were getting better, but it was too late.

 

[dazzagreenwood]

Hi guys i'm researching the Eastern Front for a modelling theme, and i was wondering if He-177's were ever deployed there? I know He-111's and Fw-200's were, but I can't find any information on He-177's.

 

[Wurger]

According to Kev Darling's book "Heinkel He-177" Warpaint series no.33, the first operational unit to deploy He177 was 1./FKG 50. formed during the summer of 1942 with the first a/c arriving in June.Actual combat operetions began for the unit in January 1943 when transferred to Zaporozhye as a part of Luftflotte 4.This was the era of the defence of Stalingrad and massive amounts of air support of all kinds were needed to supply and defend the troops on the ground.That's all I 've found.I hope it is helpful.
There a pic from the mentioned above book :

 

[Kurfürst]

If You trace that 350 mp/h figure down it comes from a He-177 Schiffer book. Those Schiffer books have never been reputated for reliability altough in this very topic they were correct. However, there is something different:
The 350 mp/h were flown at "Erhöhte Notleistung"-powersetting (something like WEP + injection. Only suitable for less than a minute in DB 610´s without risking an engine failure or worser: engine fire) in level flight by an He-177AV prototype stripped down from defensive armement and without payload except for minimum fuel load. So this figure isn´t represantative for the He-177 in usual bomber configuartion.
The He-177A5, the mostly used bomber variant had a top speed of 440 Km/h (273 mp/h) sustainable for 30 min.+ at "Steig- und Kampfleistung"-powersetting (100%). Using the "Start- und Notleistungs"- powersetting (WEP or 110%) the He-177A5 could be accelerated to 488 Km/h (303 mp/h) max in level flight. This speed was flown at Rechlin during several testflights with defensive armement but without bombs at 3/4 fuel load (for normal range).

Hope, this helps.

Interesting and good info, which Schiffer book is that exactly ?

A sidenote on power settings, of course the max speeds are understood for Start u. Notleistung, or as it was earlier called on the DB 601/606 engines, erhöhte Notleistung. These power settings were of course, only allowed for a couple of minutes, by Allied terminology this is WEP power setting.

However it should not be forgotten that every other bombers listed top speed, say a B-17s, is also given with using the WEP limited to a few minutes. So it's comparable, even though it's not a very useful speed for a bomber, considering especially formation flying and fuel economy issues (range!) that meant that bombers usually cruised at far less then their top
speeds.

Continous maximum and economic cruise speeds are far more interesting IMHO.

 

[Nicodemus]

Recently I saw a profile of an He 177 unit on the eastern front which had their aircraft equipped with heavy calibre 50 mm cannons to combat Soviet flak positions. What was the idea behind this? Doe sanybody have more info?

 

[Nicodemus]

I found it on my computer. Check out the top aircraft with the weird 'chin cannon'