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General characteristics
Crew: 3 to 4
Length: 13.70 m (44 ft 11 in)
Wingspan: 22.0 m (72 ft 2 in)
Height: 3.3 m (10 ft 10 in)
Wing area: 62.9 m² (677 ft²)
Empty weight: 4,050 kg (8,930 lb)
Loaded weight: 7,130 kg (15,720 lb)
Powerplant: 4× Hirth HM 508C air-cooled, inverted V8 engines, 182 kW (244 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 233 mph, 375 km/h (202 kn)
Range: 2,170 mi, 3,500 km (1,900 nmi)
Service ceiling: 7,600 m (24,900 ft)
Wing loading: 113 kg/m² (23 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 100 W/kg (0.06 hp/lb)
General characteristics
Crew: five
Capacity: 30 fully armed troops in transport configuration
Length: 23.45 m (76 ft 11 in)
Wingspan: 32.85 m (107 ft 9 in)
Height: 6.30 m (20 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 119.85 m² (1,290 ft²)
Empty weight: 17,005 kg (37,490 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 24,520 kg (50,057 lb)
Powerplant: 4 × BMW/Bramo 323R-2 nine-cylinder single-row air-cooled radial engine, 895 kW (1,200hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 360 km/h (195 knots, 224 mph) at 4,800 m (15,750 ft)[14]
Cruise speed: 335 km/h (181 knots, 208 mph) at 4,000 m (13,100 ft) (Max cruise)
Range: 3,560 km (1,923 nmi, 2,212 mi)
Endurance: 14 hrs
Service ceiling: 6,000 m (19,700 ft)
He-70 carried 4 passengers. Fw-200 carried 26 passengers.
Fw-200 had far more interior space for ASV radar, long range radio equipment, meteorological equipment, special camera equipment, IR (i.e. Spanner) equipment etc. Condor had room to grow whereas He-70 / He-116 was a developmental dead end.
Not that any of this matters since Admiral Raeder had no desire to fund a naval air service such as existed during WWI.
Wasn't the Fw 200 itself hindered by political issues and less than high priority? (hence the discussion in the 'technological gambles' thread regarding focus on correcting the Fw 200's faults rather than relying on minimal structural reinforcement and greater focus on 'proper' far more advanced -and less realistic- designs like the Ju 290)I don't think the Fw 200 had much room to grow. All by itself the gear collapsed on occasion. Adding extra weight was not going to be a good idea, ever. The He.116 has a lot to recommend it and it probably could have been slightly upsized to accommodate the small growth needed.
But it would have had to have a champion ... and Ernst Heinkel was not really in favor, so I'm not sure who would have championed the idea ... that someone would have listened to. There a re a LOT of things that make sense today that simply would never have happened back then. The political situation was not as today's prople see it, and the decision makers weere relatively few. They mostly didn't listen to counsel from anyoine, but rathre looked over the situation and made a choice ... and that's the weay it was.
Indeed, but the size of the He 116 still seems to place it more as a supplemental recon aircraft filling in cases where the lower cost advantages paid off over any limits in capability. The use of small, air cooled inlines on top of the exceptional range seems to be the major advantages. (including for training purposes)You might be right, but "properly militarizing" a civil aircraft means a redesign. If they could redesign one, they could redesign the other as well.
Again, the He 111 would be more in the ballpark of the Model 14 or Hudson.The He 116 was a nice try at a long range mail plane but the trouble with trying to convert civilian aircraft to military (combat) use is that the civilian aircraft are usually built to a lower strength requirement, in the case of some of these record setting/path finding aircraft a much lower strength standard. NO 3 G turns etc.
Who said anything about using the Bramo 323?A Bramo 323 weighs about 320-330kg more than a Hirth 508 and that is for a bare engine, (dry weight, no starter, generator, exhaust system, cowling or propeller.) out of your roughly 3000kg "payload" for the He 116 the bigger powerplants could suck up 1500-2000kg. doesn't leave much weight for crew and fuel.
Yes ... I overlooked that bit in the opening post, very, very true. I'd be more hesitant of suggesting the 400 PS class Argus/Hirth engines too if not for Heinkel's own apparent intentions to fit such originally.See Post number #1.
"For the naval recon role it seems that there was a better choice than the Fw200, the He116; it had comparable range using much weaker engines; with the same engines the He116 could have performed even better. Was there a reason it wasn't tried?"
Major engine changes usually aren't going to work very well.
Heinkel seemed to attempt this rather frequently, so either had this in mind when designing the record breakers, was willing to make heavy modifications, or was being unrealistic about potential serviceability. (more likely a combination of all of those)Some didn't and record breaking aircraft skated as close to the edge as they could get away with. Trying to turn record breakers (or special purpose aircraft like long range mail planes) into combat aircraft calls for a LOT of modifications.
Maybe with the Jumo 205 diesels?But on the topic of maritime recon, something smaller than the Fw 200 and more akin to the Hudson might have been quite useful. If you're looking at Heinkel aircraft, I still say the He 111 might have been an interesting option there.
Not that any of this matters since Admiral Raeder had no desire to fund a naval air service such as existed during WWI.
Maybe, or 207s, but with 211s it might manage well enough depending on the particular fuel and equipment loadout. There's a lot of wing space on the He 111 and it was already carrying significantly more fuel than the early model Hudson (750 imp gallons compared to 537 imp gal). Range and endurance vary drastically depending on loadout on either aircraft.Maybe with the Jumo 205 diesels?
Don't know abour four 500 HP engines, but there is the Carstedt Jet Liner 600. Conversions of the Dove, carried out by Carstedt Inc, of Long Beach, California, USA. The aircraft were fitted with two 605 ehp (451 kW) Garrett AiResearch TPE331 turboprop engines. The fuselage was lengthened by 87 inches to accommodate 18 passengers.
Surely this has enough payload to have pilots and radar and a radar operator. Don't know the range, but you could throw on 3400 - 3800 pounds of extra fuel over and above standard in lieu of passengers, possibly more. If you could do that with this, why not the He.116?
Argus and Hirth engines were managing better power to weight ratios than De Havilland designs, or at least comparing the V-12s. The older straight 4, 6, and V8 designs were closer to DH performance levels. Then again, Hirth and (especially) Argus engines were produced in much larger volumes and had more emphasis on further development earlier on. (the Gypsy series, let alone the Twelve/King, didn't have that)Dove use Gypsy queen series 70 engines which weigh about 660lbs each. (they are geared and supercharged unlike the Gipsy Queen I listed in Wiki). They were also good for 330-340hp instead of the 250hp of the Gipsy Queen 50s used in the Heron.
Early models of the Garrett AiResearch TPE331 weigh about 307-340lbs? A reason the engine nacelles were so long?
There is a reason that so many turbo-prop conversions were done. The turbo-props offered much more power at much lower weight than the piston engines they replaced.
Want to try yanking the 340hp-660lb Gipsy Queens and replacing them with 600-700hp 938-950lb P&W R-1340s/ Wright R-1300s?