HELP: P-51D Excavation in France Turns Up Questions

Airframes · Nov 21, 2012

Not quite right.One British Merlin engined Mustang was know as Mustang X - this was the prototype, used at Hucknal by Rolls Royce for trials. Production P-51B/C were known as Mustang III, with the 'D' being Mustang IV and the'K' being Mustang IVa.

VBF-13 · Nov 23, 2012

ColesAircraft said:
I know the feeling. When I receive parts from warbirds like this, there are occasionally instances when I learn of fatalities associated with them, and that always makes a strong impression. But this has been the most powerful case so far, and as an artist who ultimately has to make a living doing what I do with my art and these pieces - I felt uneasy about the commercial aspect of this project. Thus I've tried especially hard to be tasteful and do service to the man and his machine. 10% of all of my eBay sales from this display are going to a San Diego veteran's charity, and I'm in touch with Lt. Lacey's hometown newspaper and the cemetery near Toledo with the hope of contacting his surviving relatives. I believe that his sister, who was 80 in 2009, has since past away, but I'd like to donate the largest piece of this aircraft to them.

- R

You're a real pro, Coles. This is the kind of sensitive treatment one would expect from a real pro.

ColesAircraft · Jun 26, 2013

For no particular reason evil I was going through some of my earlier threads and found this on what was thought to be a P-51D excavated from France. These parts were obtained by me from a Belgian collector, who also took these photos of the excavation itself.

In any case, the history of this interesting aircraft has been determined - and I thank the folks on here who helped with that. This aircraft was one of the first 'B' models to be delivered to Europe, and sported the short-lived red surrounding the national insignia. But it went on to become a photo-reconnaissance F-6B operated by the 10th Photo Group, 12th Photo Squadron and flown by Willian Lacey Jr. The latter was shot down by ground fire on July 30, 1944

Below is a photo of William Lacey and a profile of his aircraft:

In an amazing coincidence I was eventually able to locate his grave not far from my home:

Mr. Lacey's sister is still alive somewhere - or was until a few years ago.

- Ron Cole

drgondog · Jun 27, 2013

ColesAircraft said:
Figured out the serial number error. The original Missing Air Crew Report incorrectly lists the a/c serial as '42-312391' and the pilot's name as 'William Dale' - his name was William Dale Lacey.

I found another photo of him besides the one I included in my Blog article:

View attachment 216235

43-12391 was in the last 102 P-51B-1NA series of 400. It almost certainly went to the 354th FG. I researched losses of -12205 through -12488. The earliest Loss was 12-11-1943 (-12196), the next losses were 12-30-43 (-12206), 12-20-43 (-12406)..

So there is a straddle between 12196 and 12406 and possible this ship was lost in mid December 1943 but I don't have the MACR's to get locations.

It is absolutely impossible for any P-51B-1 lost in 1943 on the continent to occur before 354 started combat ops December 1, 1943.

ColesAircraft · Jun 27, 2013

Sounds about right. I think earlier in the thread there was some specific discussion regarding early missions, too. The only lingering question, and thus interesting question - at least to me - is the red around the insignia. It was so short lived in service, and yet we unearth a P-51B / F-6B that was shot down in July 1944 that still retained the red surround without any evidence of over-painting. It's a detail, to be sure, but it is noteworthy. I personally think that for artists and scale modelers the red surround offers a colorful and interesting variation of markings. If some aircraft went into combat with those markings, possibly as late as July 1944, then we'd have more justification to use such colors in our respective crafts.

- Ron Cole

ColesAircraft · Jun 27, 2013

ColesAircraft said:
For no particular reason evil I was going through some of my earlier threads and found this on what was thought to be a P-51D excavated from France. These parts were obtained by me from a Belgian collector, who also took these photos of the excavation itself.

In any case, the history of this interesting aircraft has been determined - and I thank the folks on here who helped with that. This aircraft was one of the first 'B' models to be delivered to Europe, and sported the short-lived red surrounding the national insignia. But it went on to become a photo-reconnaissance F-6B operated by the 10th Photo Group, 12th Photo Squadron and flown by Willian Lacey Jr. The latter was shot down by ground fire on July 30, 1944

Below is a photo of William Lacey and a profile of his aircraft:

View attachment 236891

In an amazing coincidence I was eventually able to locate his grave not far from my home:

View attachment 236892

Mr. Lacey's sister is still alive somewhere - or was until a few years ago.

- Ron Cole

drgondog said:
43-12391 was in the last 102 P-51B-1NA series of 400. It almost certainly went to the 354th FG. I researched losses of -12205 through -12488. The earliest Loss was 12-11-1943 (-12196), the next losses were 12-30-43 (-12206), 12-20-43 (-12406)..

So there is a straddle between 12196 and 12406 and possible this ship was lost in mid December 1943 but I don't have the MACR's to get locations.

It is absolutely impossible for any P-51B-1 lost in 1943 on the continent to occur before 354 started combat ops December 1, 1943.

Agreed! When I started this thread I thought I'd received the wreckage of a P-51D (as that's how it was erroneously described to me, sight unseen), but I quickly saw that it was a 'B' from what I had of the rear fuselage and horizontal tail. Thus I started from scratch, and posted here for help. That this was a very early P-51 loss was my hopeful speculation, but then it became clear once the serial number was known that this wasn't the case - in spite of the somewhat misleading late-'43 red-rimmed national insignia. Finally I went back to my source and asked if he could put me in touch with the excavation team. I finally discovered the whole story: The loss date, pilot's name, his grave site . . . and the fact that by 2006 this P-51 loss had become one of the better known WWII Allied aircraft crash sites in France, complete with a memorial monument erected at the site that year, and information pertaining to the pilot's family via several news reports.

Well . . . if you don't dig, you'll never know!

drgondog · Jun 28, 2013

You may recall from the lack of a dorsal fin, the a/c still could have been a P-51D-5 from just the evidence originally presented. Having said that the D-5 didn't arrive into operational deployment until very late May 1944

A4K · Jun 28, 2013

The rear fuse would be lower though in any case.

barneybolac · Oct 18, 2017

Curious was there any invasion stripes found at all on this wreckage?

parsifal · Oct 18, 2017

My head hurts and is spinning on its axis at this point.

Great work guys, though I suspect you all have given up your day jobs at this point.

HELP: P-51D Excavation in France Turns Up Questions

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