southjn1982
Airman
- 64
- Dec 15, 2020
Last edited:
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At that point we might as well do a Langley and convert Hermes to a seaplane tender. Something like HMAS Albatross that entered service in 1929.
View attachment 609636That would be the single worst thing you could do as it would have such a detrimental effect to her capability. Hermes was the starting point for the 1942 Light Carrier Programme as well as HMS Unicorn by mass producing her preferably throughout the late 20's and 30's on top of the obvious economic benefits of the job creation during the depression you have a cheap expendable carrier that is fast enough to operate with the cruiser groups as well as being a very capable sub hunter and good enough for second line resupply missions basically doing the roles ships like the Majestic class or the Escort Carriers like the Casablanca's did but 3 years earlier. This frees up the larger carriers for strike missions so they are not wasted in the OTL sub hunting groups of 1939-40 nor are they wasted on resupply missions like Malta or Norway. The early creation of an effective second line carrier doing non fleet roles could have saved every single one of the RN Fleet carriers that were wasted between 1939 and 41 (Courageous, Glorious, Ark Royal and Eagle) while simultaneously having more availiable strike capability considering how much damage 1 CV did at Taranto 2-3 would have perminantly put the Italians out of the war or if the hunting groups for commerce raiders had a baked in air component i.e. What would the Battle of the River Plate had looked like if aswell as his 3 cruisers Harwood had Hermes (or a Hermes clone) how much more ocean could they cover in looking for the Panzershiffes and how would Graff Spee have handled a simultaneous strike of 20 Skua dive bombers while also dealing with the 3 cruisers. . Turning her into a Sea Plane carrier would undo all of that potential
Hermes was far from a disappointment she was not a "Strike Carrier" but in secondary roles like Trade protection she did very well she had a very good record of hunting pirates, German commerce raider, sinking submarines etc. My proposal is to use her for the role she was actually designed for and did very well i.e. Trade protection and not try and pretend she is a frontline strike carrier as you have nothing else in the region since you built more of them and didn't waste fleet carriers like Glorious, Courageous, Ark Royal and Eagle on missions they should never have been used for thus by actually doing the original Admiralty plan you can free up Frontline hulls for strike missions as well as massively helping the Battle of the Atlantic and against commerce raiders by closing the North Atlantic Gap 3 years earlyIf the motive is to remove Hermes from the total displacement of British carriers as suggested above (not my preferred route, but that's what's suggested), my proposal has merit.
Hermes did operate deck parks when needed and it did increase the aircraft numbers but you have to remember that the RN and USN count aircraft in a very different way. I will give an example comparing the Essex Class and the Implacable class. The Essex class is rated at 90 aircraft but that not only includes Aircraft in Hangers but also Aircraft tied to the roofs the hanger in pieces as well as the permanent deck park. Thus not all 90 are combat capable. The Implacable is rated for 52 Aircraft but that only counts aircraft in the Hanger since deck parks are not counted as part of the compliment as they are not permanently attached to the vessel but assigned on a mission by mission basis from the theatre reserve this is due to having to operate in areas like the North Sea and the Med where a permanent deck park can not be used due to weather and storm issues. This is why when operating in the Pacific with the BPF the Implacable class actually operated 81 aircraft and every single one of them was combat capable and could be launched at short notice. This was helped as the RN didn't normally do large scale repairs on board the CVs and thus didnt need to carry aircraft spares in the same volumes as they instead operated forward air maintenance ships like HMS Unicorn (which was essentially a light carrier but was tasked with maintenance work)I didn't see it earlier in the thread but may have missed it, if you wanted to increase the amount of aircraft carried take page from the USN and start using deck parks. Wouldn't that work on Hermes?
It did? With no crash barrier, no catapult, no outriggers, a rapidly narrowing forward flight deck and a significant aft rounddown I can't imagine Hermes operating deck parks. If we're upgrading Hermes, minus the catapult this would be my list of issues to remedy, plus lift size.Hermes did operate deck parks when needed
The FAA have a long tradition of improvisation these are the same guys who realised if you attached a bag of bricks to the inside off a Hurricane you could launch it off ArgusIt did? With no crash barrier, no catapult, no outriggers, a rapidly narrowing forward flight deck and a significant aft rounddown I can't imagine Hermes operating deck parks.
No, I'm not suggested it couldn't be done. I'm asking you to defend your assertion specific to Hermes. Did she operate deck parks as you claim? When? How?The FAA have a long tradition of improvisation these are the same guys who realised if you attached a bag of bricks to the inside of a Hurricane you could launch it of Argus
There are multiple records of her operating a deck park while hunting pirates in the late 1930s as well as taking on additional planes when she took part in the search for the Lady Southern Cross in 1935 when it disappeared trying to break the India-Australia Speed recordNo, I'm not suggested it couldn't be done. I'm asking you to defend your assertion specific to Hermes. Did she operate deck parks?
IDK, that may be more an example of leaving some ready aircraft on deck in good weather, rather than permanently storing aircraft on deck because the hangar is fully in use. Can you share any of these multiple records?There are multiple records of her operating a deck park while hunting pirates in the late 1930s
If you look at the crew logs of the incident when she was searching for Charles Kingsford Smith when he disappeared trying to break the India to Australia speed record she took on additional planes from Singapore and operated a limited deck park to increase thier search area. She would also often take on additional RAF Torpedo Bombers based at RAF Seleta such as when you practiced mock torpedo attacks against HMS Dorsetshire and Cumberland in February 37 during her tour of the DEI My Grandfather was the Chief Engineer on Hermes at the time and I still have his diary.IDK, that may be more an example of leaving some ready aircraft on deck in good weather, rather than permanently storing aircraft on deck because the hangar is fully in use. Can you share any of these multiple records?
My favourite "deck park" instance with HMS Hermes was Charles Lindbergh and his wife Anne parking their Lockheed Sirius on Hermes' flight deck.If you look at the crew logs of the incident when she was searching for Charles Kingsford Smith when he disappeared trying to break the India to Australia speed record she took on additional planes from Singapore and operated a limited deck park to increase thier search area. She would also often take on additional RAF Torpedo Bombers based at RAF Seletar such as when you practiced mock torpedo attacks against HMS Dorsetshire and Cumberland in February 37 during her tour of the DEI My Grandfather was the Chief Engineer on Hermes at the time and I still have his diary.
Those are amazing Photo's my Grandad adored the Navy it was a total movie story as he had been born in a poor house in South Wales and lied about his age and enlisted when he was 13 and then eventually worked up through the ranks got a commission. He served all over the world he even briefly was on Hood during the Spanish Civil War, although he was mentioned in dispatches twice and recommended for the VC he never got it as it was given to a more senior officer he was with instead and he had to settle for his second mention in dispatches he would tell stories of a small group of Gurkhas he was with swimming the causeway at either Hong Kong or Singapore (I can never remember which one he was captured at) every night and coming back with the ears of Japanese soldiers he was eventually captured by the Japanese and was one of only 5 survivors in a camp of 15,000 as his camp was in Hiroshima and he was thier when the bomb went off and he would tell stories of walking around the city after the bomb with a wheel barrow he found scavenging food after the war he refused to allow anyone in the family buy a microwave for the rest of his life due to his fear of radiation. I ended up joining myself in the early 2000s although I left after the 2010 Strategic Defence Review but I loved my time even if it was super tame compared to his.My favourite "deck park" instance with HMS Hermes was Charles Lindbergh and his wife Anne parking their Lockheed Sirius on Hermes' flight deck.
Good pics here...
MaritimeQuest - Marine Ernest Walter Foster, R.M. Collection Page 4
Ahoy - Mac's Web Log - Photos of aircraft and HMS Hermes, the first aircraft carrier built for the Royal Navy
Rescue of Charles A. Lindbergh's plane from the Yangtze River shortly... News Photo - Getty Images
I was in Singapore and Hong Kong in 2018 and at both visited the old military sites/sights. I imagine serving on HMS Hermes in the Indian and Pacific Oceans between the wars was the height of adventure for the RN sailor, far more so than running up and down the Channel in December.
Trust me, I'm not trying to be a dick but I'm well aware of hangar storage, deck parks etc in both the USN and the RN. But thank you anyway for taking the time out to write your explanation.Hermes did operate deck parks when needed and it did increase the aircraft numbers but you have to remember that the RN and USN count aircraft in a very different way. I will give an example comparing the Essex Class and the Implacable class. The Essex class is rated at 90 aircraft but that not only includes Aircraft in Hangers but also Aircraft tied to the roofs the hanger in pieces as well as the permanent deck park. Thus not all 90 are combat capable. The Implacable is rated for 52 Aircraft but that only counts aircraft in the Hanger since deck parks are not counted as part of the compliment as they are not permanently attached to the vessel but assigned on a mission by mission basis from the theatre reserve this is due to having to operate in areas like the North Sea and the Med where a permanent deck park can not be used due to weather and storm issues. This is why when operating in the Pacific with the BPF the Implacable class actually operated 81 aircraft and every single one of them was combat capable and could be launched at short notice. This was helped as the RN didn't normally do large scale repairs on board the CVs and thus didnt need to carry aircraft spares in the same volumes as they instead operated forward air maintenance ships like HMS Unicorn (which was essentially a light carrier but was tasked with maintenance work)
For my two cents worth I think you've hit the nail on the head with that suggestion.More pics here HMS Hermes (1919)
When you look at the models of Hermes you can see how little internal space was allocated to carrying aircraft, considering she was an aircraft carrier.
The hangar is set well inboard of the hull sides.
View attachment 609676
And the hangar stops before the island.
View attachment 609677
My opinion, given that the hull above the hangar deck is mild steel, is to tear down the ship to the hangar deck and make a new carrier. Install new machinery, and make the hangar the full width of the ship, or as close to given the fittings and accommodation needed. So, we need to rip down these sides, etc.