How can the U.S. cockade be confused with the Japanese cockade?

João Yazalde · Dec 28, 2022

I read that the USA cockade was changed because it could be confused with the Japanese one due to the red circle. But as you can see there is a difference in size between the two. How could someone mistake such a small circle for a Japanese circle? Couldn't he also realize that there was blue color there?

GTX · Dec 28, 2022

When one might only have a fleeting glance (a second at most) and just catches the most obvious colour (red) then yes a mistake could be made.

GrauGeist · Dec 28, 2022

In the heat of battle, confusion can (and did) happen.

The "meatball" was removed from the U.S. insignia as a precaution.

The British and it's Commonwealth nations operating in that theater also removed the red center from their roundels.

SaparotRob · Dec 28, 2022

In the book "30 Seconds Over Tokyo", I think it was mentioned that the B-25s may have been mistaken for Nells. The twin tails and the bright red eye catching dot may have been contributing factors.
I haven't read that in a long time. It could have been from one of Martin Caidin's books.

fubar57 · Dec 28, 2022

All I could find...

May 28th , 1942
Insignia Specification No.24102-K Amend. #3
First major change in 25 years to the "Star-in-Circle" design. The red inner circle device was ordered removed to reduce possible confusion with the Japanese Hinomaru (Meatball) insignia

special ed · Dec 28, 2022

Elsewhere on the forum, reports of German camo, mottled brown, actual combat with He 100/113, and in the Pacific, Tonys reported as Bf 109s. Post flight briefings with proof of the pilot's errors did not change their opinions. The fog of battle.

pbehn · Dec 28, 2022

If you dont have a photo it is then a question of how big red circles are, try that on ground troops?

Greg Boeser · Dec 28, 2022

Even after the RAAF removed the red from their insignia, friendly fire incidents occurred. American pilots would report engaging Japanese aircraft with subdued markings. This led to the adoption of the star and bar insignia for US aircraft, and the roundel and bar for Commonwealth aircraft in the PTO.

Wildcat · Dec 29, 2022

Yep, it did happen.

After a bombing mission to Tulagi on 26 June 1942, a Catalina came under attack from an American Navy Grumann Wildcat, the crew of which mistook the Australian aircraft as being Japanese, citing the red centre in its RAAF roundel and its likeness to the Japanese roundel. This would ultimately lead to the RAAF changing their roundel to a blue circle with a white centre.

source The Role of Catalinas in Australia's War in the Pacific | Australian War Memorial

thunderbird · Jan 2, 2023

Considering that combat often began when planes were thousands of feet apart, And closure speeds might be in hundreds of mph, especially in head on closures, and lighting unpredictable, identifying by markings was always problematic.

SaparotRob · Jan 2, 2023

fubar57 said:
All I could find...

May 28th , 1942
Insignia Specification No.24102-K Amend. #3
First major change in 25 years to the "Star-in-Circle" design. The red inner circle device was ordered removed to reduce possible confusion with the Japanese Hinomaru (Meatball) insignia

Is "Star in Circle " the official designation?

Frog · Jan 2, 2023

And in the ETO, US shot british planes and vice versa without anything cockade related (notably the C-54 that was bringing the first dive flap kits for the P-38s, shot by a Spit)

fubar57 · Jan 2, 2023

SaparotRob said:
Is "Star in Circle " the official designation?

I'm thinking "Roundel"

thunderbird · Jan 13, 2023

The simple answer is that combat often began when planes were hundreds to thousands of yards apart. Gun attacks began at over 100 yards, and identifying one plane from another from front or aft view was truly difficult. Red colors often stick out more than darker colors at distance, so any hint of red might have been a sign to press the attack.

varsity07840 · Jan 16, 2023

In the SWPA the Army units began painting out or reducing the size of the red center as early as March.

How can the U.S. cockade be confused with the Japanese cockade?

More options

João Yazalde

Airman

GTX

Major

GrauGeist

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

SaparotRob

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

fubar57

General

special ed

1st Sergeant

pbehn

Colonel

Greg Boeser

1st Sergeant

Wildcat

Major

thunderbird

Airman

SaparotRob

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Frog

Staff Sergeant

fubar57

General

thunderbird

Airman

varsity07840

Airman 1st Class

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads