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Do you think we sit on our asses and read books all day?
Or do you suppose we might have an intimate knowledge of how these machines work because we have been in direct contact with the men and the machines over the years?
How about you lighten up with your smartass comments...
John Comer was a flight engineer in the 381st BG and we flew B-17's. Incidentally, his book Combat Crew is exceptional. It is long out of print, but if you find a used copy, you will enjoy it.
Bob Gilbert
S/Sgt, 35 missions
Ball Turret Gunner, Goldin crew
381st Bomb Gp., 533rd Bomb Sq.
US 8th Air Force
Like I say, lighten up...do you guys read books written by veterans just for enjoyment, or do you do it to pick holes in their accounts??
Nobody was 'picking on' Comer until you put the narrative on display.. In other words we were more likely to be giving you a hard time for believing it? From my perspective I am Not apologetic for doubting the facts/claims made in his story.
I read to learn and frequently question dubious claims - book or internet or post. You may choose to embrace whatever narrative that floats your boat..
64 boxes of 50 cal stored in Radio cabin...aft of the CG by several feet, conversely shoving the 200 pounds per crew by 4 (ball, waist, waist, radio) by several more feet aft of CG, then by another 30 feet x 200 for tail gunner, then by 26 feetx1100 for stacked boxes at tail bulkhead..
Further 13,500 rounds = 4500 pounds, or about 2000 pounds over the calculated gross weight Takeoff, including mission load of fuel and bombs. You think the engineer (Comer) didn't understand the implications?
He said "1300 pounds were stored at the tail". 200 (max) for tail gunner, 1100 for ammo. 50 pounds+ per box. 22 boxes at tail gun/tail wheel bulkhead.
With respect, you have not read the extract properly - for a start not all of the extra ammunition was stored aft of the bomb bay - Comer wrote he placed as much as he could forward, against the radio-room/bomb bay bulkhead and as close as possible to the B-17's cg, with the rest in the cockpit and nose. At no time does he specify how much extra ammunition was in the radio room or in the front, nor does he say how heavy each load was.
Instead you make assumptions, based on what?
Note that Comer says he almost doubled the normal load of 7,000 rounds to thirteen thousand five hundred? What are the chances that in writing about events some 30 years later he, or an editor, or the publisher, transposed two lots of figures and came up with a slightly garbled account? 3,500 with a mark in front of it can look a lot like 13,500 and it seems all too coincidental that 13,500 rounds was what Comer claimed to have loaded - why not fourteen thousand rounds? So I'm going to assume that figures were transposed, because I know it can happen, and assume that what Comer meant to say is that he doubled the load from 3,500 rounds to 7,000. In fact earlier in the narrative Comer asked the armorer for 4,000 extra rounds, not 7,000. It also changes any calculations about how much extra weight was loaded in the rear of the B-17, and the effects of shifting some of that weight.
Or you can just read into the narrative whatever floats your boat...
Stigler nor any proofreader caught the error.
Read the last paragraph of your narrative - in which Gleishauf(sp?) states specifically "We were 1300 pounds too heavy in the tail".
Note - he didn't say "aft of the CG, Radio Room, or Waist" - he said "Tail"... that structural grouping on a B-17 that hosts the tail wheel and tail gunner as well as supply aft flight control surfaces...
Read your own post thoroughly before commenting on my comprehension of the issue that Gleishauf (sp?) had discovered and reported to the command pilot.
How specific do you wish to get?
Specific enough to note that that it was Comer who told the pilot Gleichauf that they were "too heavy in the tail by 1300 pounds". Plus,just before explaining to Gleichauf what had happened, Comer had chewed out the tail gunner, saying "You were in that tail on takeoff ? No wonder we were so tail heavy". Also noting the tail gunner was able to get out of the tail position in spite of 1,100 lbs of ammunition in 64 (or is it 22?) boxes allegedly stacked next to and around the tailwheel bulkhead.
The Narrative was "Too heavy in the tail by 1300 pounds". The Tail Gunner was at his station in the tail - aft of tail wheel. By Implication, 200 pounds for tail gunner plus gear and 1100 pounds of ammo at the aft bulkhead.
The number of rounds per box has been speculated all over the place (as noted in the thread above) but the weight of linked .50 is close to 3/pound - so rather than quibble on the number of boxes, focus on calculation of 1100 pounds x 3/pound ==> 3300 rounds. If 150 per box ==>22 boxes, if 105 ==>33 boxes
Gleichauf, who was the command pilot, did not have to "discover" the problem because he was told by Comer. And Comer chewed out the tail gunner because he was the main reason for the plane being tail heavy. Kinda hard to believe he would say that when there were supposed to be 64 boxes of ammo packed into the tail area.
Read it again. The narrative stated that the majority of the ammo was stored where it should be stored - some in the nose the rest in the radio compartment.
So I ask again, how much weight was needed, some 30 feet behind the B-17's cg, to make the aircraft tail heavy by 1,300 lbs?
1300 pounds.
1300 = tail gunner plus rest of ammo stored at aft bulkhead =>1100 pounds of 50 caliber ammo.
I have no doubts that the tail gunner, the rest of the gunners, and, possibly, Comer got a real chewing out on return to base but, with a shortage of experienced crews on the squadron, they were put on probation
From this tale I take it that extra weight aft of the C of G would alter the angle of attack of the wing and hence the lift it produces, the farther back the weight the greater the change in angle of attack. Would the problem be as severe if the same weight is forward of the C of G. I seem to recall many references to weight aft causing problems but not so many of weight forward?