how much ammo did a b 17 carry for the 50s

[Aozora]

The Flight Engineer/top turret gunner is the senior NCO and responsible for a.) the load out on takeoff, b.) positioning the crew at the radio bulkhead station - then he moves forward across the cat walk to his station behind pilot/co-pilot for takeoff. Comer is first guy that should be chewed out - the ammo was probably stored back there on Comer's orders as it is hard to image that the aft crew moved ammo around and then watch the tail gunner maneuver past the stored ammo at bulkhead as the B-17 was taxiing.

It is a strange tale.

Note - we may both be a little dyslexic regarding the names and who told who. I assumed (bad) that 'Jim' was the Flight Engineer, and that the story teller was the co-pilot. If the story teller is Comer, and comer is top turret gunner, then who is Jim of 'Jim should know better'? Once again the top turret gunner/flt engineer is senior NCO

EDIT - OK - I have it now. Kels is co pilot, Comer is Flt engineer - so 'Jim' must be some other NCO still aft of bomb bay..I still suspect Comer ordered the ammo that wouldn't fit on radio compartment/bomb bay bulkhead to be distributed toward the waist. There is no explaining "Legg" being stupid enough to crawl to his position - not a great place to be if the B-17 crash lands on takeoff... if airplane survives then he spends more time crawling out over tail wheel than simply egressing out the aft door like the rest of the aft crew.

Gleichauf Crew B-17G-10-DL 42-37719 "Hellcat":

John Comer, flight engineer/top gunner and senior NCO wrote the book, and no he did not "order" the crew to redistribute ammunition boxes into the waist; that is yet another assumption made with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

"Jim" is Sgt James Counce, senior waist gunner who could also double as a flight engineer. The other crew members in the waist/tail area were Sgts Wilson, waist; Harkness, ball; Legg, tail gunner.

 

[drgondog]

Can we agree on this... 1.) going to Anklam was a mission that was as long range as Berlin, and only 60 miles NW of Stettin, requiring b.) max fuel short of putting Tokyo tanks in bomb bay, and Probably reduced bomb load from 5000 pounds to 4000-4500, c.) and that the max bomb load permissible and loaded into the bomb bays was based on a calculation of 'standard' (for that crew) 7000 rounds of 50 caliber ammo?

Can we agree to conclude that the flight engineer (Comer) ignored his pilot's concerns for an 'extra load' of ammo (read a. and b.), much less Double the load (and weight) of what Comer described as Standard? So the Engineer, presumably knowledgeable about weights and balance, then stuck the equivalent of an 'extra' 2000 pound bomb aft of the bomb bay... which by the way - already had the normal spare ammo stored in the same location - mostly against the bomb bay/radio room
bulkhead - and didn't tell the pilot?

It did not matter if another guy redistributed the ammo because Comer is soley responsible for the act of overloading the airplane, and further, creating the aft cg issue even if the extra ammo stayed where he (Comer by his narrative) personally put it. Everyone crew member aft of the bomb was simply dangerously ignorant(for moving the ammo further back to waist area and tail bulkhead - with Legg particularly a bonehead for taking himself into his tail position in defiance of takeoff procedures!) and Comer was dangerously incompetent for a.) putting that much weight into an already planned 'threshold Gross Weight' airplane on a very long mission - even if he had placed 75% forward and 25% aft, and b.) not personally inspecting the aft section as the airplane was taxiing to make sure the aft crew was in the radio room (SOP) during takeoff.

I actually don't know whether the story is a stretched 'tale of survival', outright BS or a simple truthful narrative to confess his own ignorance of unintended consequences of his own actions. Perhaps harsh - but he did nothing by the book and the NCO's under his command totally screwed up written and practiced takeoff SOP.

 

[Aozora]

Can we agree on this... 1.) going to Anklam was a mission that was as long range as Berlin, and only 60 miles NW of Stettin, requiring b.) max fuel short of putting Tokyo tanks in bomb bay, and Probably reduced bomb load from 5000 pounds to 4000-4500, c.) and that the max bomb load permissible and loaded into the bomb bays was based on a calculation of 'standard' (for that crew) 7000 rounds of 50 caliber ammo?

Can we agree to conclude that the flight engineer (Comer) ignored his pilot's concerns for an 'extra load' of ammo (read a. and b.), much less Double the load (and weight) of what Comer described as Standard? So the Engineer, presumably knowledgeable about weights and balance, then stuck the equivalent of an 'extra' 2000 pound bomb aft of the bomb bay... which by the way - already had the normal spare ammo stored in the same location - mostly against the bomb bay/radio room
bulkhead - and didn't tell the pilot?

It did not matter if another guy redistributed the ammo because Comer is soley responsible for the act of overloading the airplane, and further, creating the aft cg issue even if the extra ammo stayed where he (Comer by his narrative) personally put it. Everyone crew member aft of the bomb was simply dangerously ignorant(for moving the ammo further back to waist area and tail bulkhead - with Legg particularly a bonehead for taking himself into his tail position in defiance of takeoff procedures!) and Comer was dangerously incompetent for a.) putting that much weight into an already planned 'threshold Gross Weight' airplane on a very long mission - even if he had placed 75% forward and 25% aft, and b.) not personally inspecting the aft section as the airplane was taxiing to make sure the aft crew was in the radio room (SOP) during takeoff.

I actually don't know whether the story is a stretched 'tale of survival', outright BS or a simple truthful narrative to confess his own ignorance of unintended consequences of his own actions. Perhaps harsh - but he did nothing by the book and the NCO's under his command totally screwed up written and practiced takeoff SOP.

What I can agree on is that as soon as you read the extracts you jumped to a series of conclusions unsupported by any evidence, exacerbated by a poor read of the extracts, and nothing will now change your mind. There is no evidence that the load was doubled from 7,000 rounds - which is already almost double the normal load of an early B-17G; note that it was expected that fighter opposition would be light and that the mission was flown at lower than normal altitudes, meaning that it is extremely doubtful that anything like 7,000 rounds was the normal ammunition load carried. You then calculate that the equivalent of an extra 2,000 pounds was stowed aft with no evidence that that much weight, or anything approaching it was, was loaded. If Comer was the big screw up or BS artist you claim, somehow he and the rest of the crew survived right through their tour and Comer went on to do another couple of tours so he must have done some things right. He then wrote down his memories, not realising that 70 years later an armchair internet critic would accuse him of BS or ignorance. But that's life.

 

[GrauGeist]

Just a though here, Bill...

If the extra ammo was stored aft, there would be no place to securely store the additional boxes except for the rear jumpseat area by the back hatch. There may have been no place for the tail gunner to sit and buckle in for take-off, except for his gun station.

 

[GrauGeist]

And an additional thought here...

I want a yes or no answer from you Aozora, just either a Yes or No to my question:

Were you aboard that B-17 that day mentioned in the mission?

 

[drgondog]

Dave - I fully understand that.. having said this, the tail gunner should have been at least no further aft than the aft radio room hatch with his back to it in case of a crash landing. As to placing 20+ boxes at the rear bulkhead, imagine all 20 + launched forward in a 10 G crash landing

SOP had all of the aft crew at the radio room/bomb bay bulkhead and asclose to the CG as they could crowd.

Go back to the aerly thread when Peters (15th AF B-17 pilot) was referenced as stating 15 + boxes as his 'normal load of .50 cal based on his recollection od 150 rnds/box. The guns were some times loaded but not chambered on takeoff but most of the 'spares' were placed up front fro all forward guns - and usually None of the guns aft were loaded, with all boxes up near the bomb bay for weight distribution close to the CG. Waist, Waist, Ball and Tail.

Death wish crew members moved more weight farther aft of CG. Death wish engineers loaded 2x ammo load on extreme long range missions because there was no safe place to put it and didn't think enough of his 'executive decision to TELL the pilots what he had done..

 

[GrauGeist]

I know how deadly an object can be in a crash!

My recent collision saw my Pentax camera launch off the seat and partially embed itself into the dash...and that was just a DSLR camera...

 

[Aozora]

And an additional thought here...

I want a yes or no answer from you Aozora, just either a Yes or No to my question:

Were you aboard that B-17 that day mentioned in the mission?

Yes I was on board that B-17 that day and saw absolutely everything that happened. Not only that but I saw drgondog and you there as well, taking and comparing notes and photos and muttering under your breaths that Comer should have been grounded then and there. Whatever rocks your boats.

 

[GrauGeist]

"Whatever floats your boat", yeah...good return, there

In a forum, people will look at events and try to understand the how and why that happened so many years ago.

There will always be a difference of opinion. Talking like an ass to others who may challenge your opinion serves no purpose but to invalidate your argument. Unless you were in that B-17 that day, you don't know what really happened, do you? No, you don't...you are merely an "armchair expert" that you have so kindly pointed out to others (I assume excluding yourself, though) but you need to understand that there ARE people on this forum who have hands-on experiance with aircraft, both modern and vintage, in many aspects.

My advise to you, would be to simply be quiet now, you have done nothing to further your point, and it's ruining an otherwise informative thread.

 

[Njaco]

ENOUGH! One more sarcastic comment and vacations will be given. People are human, mistakes can be made, lets move on.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

ENOUGH! One more sarcastic comment and vacations will be given. People are human, mistakes can be made, lets move on.

Why the warning? How many are needed? How many have already been given in other threads?

 

[fastmongrel]

How was the ammo fed to the tail guns on the B17 all this talk of boxes has confused me I thought that the tail guns would have been fed from some sort of long track holding a belt similar to that used on RAF bombers tail positions.

 

[Aozora]

How was the ammo fed to the tail guns on the B17 all this talk of boxes has confused me I thought that the tail guns would have been fed from some sort of long track holding a belt similar to that used on RAF bombers tail positions.

From B-17F manual:

W shows two main boxes on either side of the tail gunner feeding .50s via short tracks; pretty sure that this was changed in the G series to boxes forward of the tailwheel bulkhead, feeding guns via a long track.