How well did the Germans make use of occupied France aero industry?

Nodeo-Franvier · Sep 18, 2023

From my understanding the French Aero industry was largely gutted under Germans occupation,How well did the Germans make use of them?

It should be much easier for the Germans to orders some Potez 630 instead of making Hs129 from scratch using French engine

Geoffrey Sinclair · Sep 18, 2023

If I have found all the relevant factory entries, this is what the USSBS thinks,

Model	Total	C445	Do24	Fi156	Fw189	Ju52	Si204	Bf108	Ar196	D520
Maker	Total	Caudron	SNCA	MS	SNCA	Amiot	SNCA	SNCA	SNCA	Dw
Jul-41	8	8
Aug-41	10	10
Sep-41	18	18
Oct-41	26	26
Nov-41	0
Dec-41	0
Jan-42	16	16
Feb-42	7	7
Mar-42	20	20
Apr-42	31	28	0	2	0	0	1
May-42	54	38	0	9	0	0	0	7
Jun-42	78	64	0	9	0	1	1	3
Jul-42	52	25	0	8	3	3	2	9	2
Aug-42	46	12	0	10	11	4	1	7	1
Sep-42	80	32	0	18	14	6	3	4	3
Oct-42	102	31	1	23	26	6	5	6	4
Nov-42	88	35	1	16	16	9	4	7
Dec-42	94	26	0	26	17	11	4	7	3
Jan-43	83	22	1	22	15	10	5	4	4
Feb-43	71	15	0	11	19	9	6	8	3
Mar-43	140	23	0	45	21	27	8	13	3
Apr-43	114	13	0	30	21	28	8	14
May-43	121	3	1	35	22	31	15	14
Jun-43	120	13	2	35	15	28	13	14
Jul-43	115	10	0	36	15	26	14	14
Aug-43	161	10	3	37	18	34	10	15	0	34
Sep-43	102	3	3	40	15	29	12
Oct-43	109	7	3	42	10	39	3	5
Nov-43	96	0	3	42	6	31	11	3
Dec-43	94	0	4	35	17	29	5	4
Jan-44	66	0	5	35	4	21	1
Feb-44	61	0	5	35	3	13	5
Mar-44	93	0	5	51	5	25	7
Apr-44	77	0	5	41	0	30	1
May-44	72	0	6	24	0	32	5	5
Jun-44	47	0	0	27	0	11	7	2
Jul-44	71	0	0	36	0	23	8	4
Aug-44	15	0	0	11	0	0	3	1

1941	62	62	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
1942	668	334	2	121	87	40	21	50	13	0
1943	1326	119	20	410	194	321	110	108	10	34
1944	502	0	26	260	12	155	37	12	0	0
Total	2558	515	48	791	293	516	168	170	23	34

Admiral Beez · Sep 18, 2023

Nodeo-Franvier said:
From my understanding the French Aero industry was largely gutted under Germans occupation,How well did the Germans make use of them?

The Henschel Hs 129 used French Gnome-Rhône 14M aeroengines.

SaparotRob · Sep 18, 2023

Geoffrey Sinclair said:
If I have found all the relevant factory entries, this is what the USSBS thinks,

Model Total C445 Do24 Fi156 Fw189 Ju52 Si204 Bf108 Ar196 D520
Maker Total Caudron SNCA MS SNCA Amiot SNCA SNCA SNCA Dw
Jul-41
8
8
Aug-41
10
10
Sep-41
18
18
Oct-41
26
26
Nov-41
0
Dec-41
0
Jan-42
16
16
Feb-42
7
7
Mar-42
20
20
Apr-42
31
28
0
2
0
0
1
May-42
54
38
0
9
0
0
0
7
Jun-42
78
64
0
9
0
1
1
3
Jul-42
52
25
0
8
3
3
2
9
2
Aug-42
46
12
0
10
11
4
1
7
1
Sep-42
80
32
0
18
14
6
3
4
3
Oct-42
102
31
1
23
26
6
5
6
4
Nov-42
88
35
1
16
16
9
4
7
Dec-42
94
26
0
26
17
11
4
7
3
Jan-43
83
22
1
22
15
10
5
4
4
Feb-43
71
15
0
11
19
9
6
8
3
Mar-43
140
23
0
45
21
27
8
13
3
Apr-43
114
13
0
30
21
28
8
14
May-43
121
3
1
35
22
31
15
14
Jun-43
120
13
2
35
15
28
13
14
Jul-43
115
10
0
36
15
26
14
14
Aug-43
161
10
3
37
18
34
10
15
0
34
Sep-43
102
3
3
40
15
29
12
Oct-43
109
7
3
42
10
39
3
5
Nov-43
96
0
3
42
6
31
11
3
Dec-43
94
0
4
35
17
29
5
4
Jan-44
66
0
5
35
4
21
1
Feb-44
61
0
5
35
3
13
5
Mar-44
93
0
5
51
5
25
7
Apr-44
77
0
5
41
0
30
1
May-44
72
0
6
24
0
32
5
5
Jun-44
47
0
0
27
0
11
7
2
Jul-44
71
0
0
36
0
23
8
4
Aug-44
15
0
0
11
0
0
3
1
1941
62
62
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
1942
668
334
2
121
87
40
21
50
13
0
1943
1326
119
20
410
194
321
110
108
10
34
1944
502
0
26
260
12
155
37
12
0
0
Total
2558
515
48
791
293
516
168
170
23
34

That's a larger contribution than I previously thought.

pbehn · Sep 18, 2023

SaparotRob said:
That's a larger contribution than I previously thought.

But no where near what France was capable of, in the early days of aviation France was a significant player.

Engineman · Sep 18, 2023

I have not studied this directly but, I believe that French industry had a considerable output of Axis aircraft repairs and equipment, in addition to types listed. Purely off the top of my head think that there was the production of many parts for the He177, the Fw190, GR engines and propellers for the Me323. I have personally worked on Renault produced cylinderblocks for the DB605, many electrical parts and aircraft instruments. I also presume that there was work on the Jumo213 as this engine was used in France after the war.
Cheers

Eng

Admiral Beez · Sep 18, 2023

Nodeo-Franvier said:
From my understanding the French Aero industry was largely gutted under Germans occupation,How well did the Germans make use of them? It should be much easier for the Germans to orders some Potez 630 instead of making Hs129 from scratch using French engine

Hitler should have pulled a Bismarck; invade France, forced it to surrender and then withdrawn.

Prussian reaction and withdrawal.

Franco-Prussian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Prussian Army, under the terms of the armistice, held a brief victory parade in Paris on 1 March; the city was silent and draped with black and the Germans quickly withdrew. Bismarck honoured the armistice, by allowing train loads of food into Paris and withdrawing Prussian forces to the east of the city, prior to a full withdrawal once France agreed to pay a five billion franc war indemnity.

So, Germany forces France to surrender in June 1940. A new French government is put in place, promising neutrality, blocking British action against France, followed by Germany withdrawing from France. In one swoop, Germany has secured its western border and need only garrison Norway. And, getting back on topic, France may well sell combat aircraft to Germany.

GrauGeist · Sep 18, 2023

Germany is currently getting F-35s - there is a collaboration between France, Germany and Spain to build a stealth fighter, but there has been some issues with the project, mainly France wanting a controlling share (I believe it was 46%).

Snautzer01 · Sep 19, 2023

SaparotRob said:
That's a larger contribution than I previously thought.

Dont forget repair shops.

Nodeo-Franvier · Sep 19, 2023

Admiral Beez said:
Hitler should have pulled a Bismarck; invade France, forced it to surrender and then withdrawn.

Prussian reaction and withdrawal.

Franco-Prussian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Prussian Army, under the terms of the armistice, held a brief victory parade in Paris on 1 March; the city was silent and draped with black and the Germans quickly withdrew. Bismarck honoured the armistice, by allowing train loads of food into Paris and withdrawing Prussian forces to the east of the city, prior to a full withdrawal once France agreed to pay a five billion franc war indemnity.

So, Germany forces France to surrender in June 1940. A new French government is put in place, promising neutrality, blocking British action against France, followed by Germany withdrawing from France. In one swoop, Germany has secured its western border and need only garrison Norway. And, getting back on topic, France may well sell combat aircraft to Germany.

France will almost certainly pull a WWI Romania then

Armistice of Focșani - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Deleted member 68059 · Sep 19, 2023

Do you have this already ?

Nodeo-Franvier · Sep 19, 2023

Snowygrouch said:
Do you have this already ?

View attachment 737949

I certainly don't

Deleted member 68059 · Sep 19, 2023

Nodeo-Franvier said:
I certainly don't

It is not very long sadly, but if you think it will help, I will see if I can upload it to my website tonight.

Also its worth googling the title, if you cant wait until tonight, some of these BIOS/CIOS/FIAT/CAFT series are online in various places like Fisher-Tropsch.

Deleted member 68059 · Sep 19, 2023

Nodeo-Franvier said:
I certainly don't

Ok its here, terrible quality pics (its a very dark archive) but you can read everything.

You need to register on the webite as the archive files section is a "members" section thing, but it has no charge at all, so its just
a matter of a few mins work to do that (the complete Farren report is also in this bit)

Mori · Sep 19, 2023

Nodeo-Franvier said:
From my understanding the French Aero industry was largely gutted under Germans occupation,How well did the Germans make use of them?

It should be much easier for the Germans to orders some Potez 630 instead of making Hs129 from scratch using French engine

The book by Claude d'Abzac-Epezy, "L'armée de l'air des années noires. Vichy 1940-44" (not translated, Economica, 1998) is especially interesting here. All that follows is from this source. She took the number of A/C from another book, by Ehrengahrdt and Shores, "L'aviation de Vichy au combat" (2 volumes, not translated, Lavauzelle, 1985, 1987).

In 1941-42, about 900 aircraft were delivered to Germany, as well as ca. 1 100 BMW engines of the 132 type. That was resp. 53% / 59% of the plan layed down in 1941. Total manpower working in the French aero industry was ca. 90,000 in November 1942.

What remained of the French Air Force under Vichy managed to *increase* its size in the 1940-42 period. In November 1942, there were ca. 800 more combat aircraft in the Vichy air force than in July 1940 (of which +241 Dewoitine 520, +146 Bloch 152, +101 LeO 451). Total number of Vichy A/C was reported as ca. 2,600, some being overseas in Africa.

Germany invaded unoccupied France in November 1942. The French fleet scuttled just in time, but the French air force didn't. Almost all aircraft in Vichy France felt in German hands. So one can say that a big part of the industrial output of the July 1940-November 1942 period ended up serving the Axis, all that without any significant effort on the invader side.

However, most A/C were now of obsolete design, quite many were not serviceable, and spare parts lacking. The Luftwaffe mostly kept the transport aircraft, the Italians mostly De 520 fighters. Total number of A/C added to Axis inventory was 540+167=707 only.

There were also production of anti-air guns, as well as a few batteries manned by the French under German officers and shooting at the Allies. Desertion rates were as high as 33%. It seems these little-motivated units only ever shot one aircraft down (a Hurricane, on Nov 17th, 1943).

French air force soldiers also guarded air bases until 1944. They did so without protest until the very last minute. There were no significant cases of these guards turning against the Germans even the day before Allied troops reached the base.

Frog · Sep 19, 2023

4142 planes and 12452 engines of all types produced during the occupation of all types.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr.ntja9wllS_UA9Wok24lQ;_ylu=Y29sbwNpcjIEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1695180891/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fjournals.openedition.org%2facrh%2f23715/RK=2/RS=UG4ZHVI7teR.sAs3qAJwZrj8Y_g-

GrauGeist · Sep 19, 2023

After the fall of France, Bulgaria received D.520s and Finland received MS.406s.

In regards to how Germany utilized the French Aircraft industry to their benefit, this link leads to an in-depth chapter about this very discussion:

State Capitalism and Working-Class Radicalism in the French Aircraft Industry

tomo pauk · Sep 20, 2023

Snautzer01 · Sep 20, 2023

Perhaps of intrest German production facilities,

German production facilities, Target list airwar

From dated 1976

ww2aircraft.net

FalkeEins · Sep 21, 2023

... the major point to note about French collaboration ( eg over 500 Caudron Goelands delivered) is that German industry was free to turn out thousands of fighters... and not worry about 'minor' types.

How well did the Germans make use of occupied France aero industry?

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