How the Japanese were going to put some 'glow' their MW50!

[xylstra]

I came across a most curious reference in Mark Felton's book, "YANAGI: the Secret Underwater Trade Between Germany and Japan, 1942-1945", on page 180. It concerns the famous U-234 surrender ("NO, not the isotope, the Unterseeboot!") and the discovery of German high-tech en-route to Japan. Part of the cargo consisted of 10 Canisters (~560Kg/1,235lbs) of U-235 (YES, the isotope this time!), Uranium Oxide. He states that contrary to expectation, that it was not intended for atomic weapon development but rather, it was to be used as a catalyst for Methanol production destined for avaition 'fuel' [surely he means as an MW50 octane booster?].
....."Huh??" It's news to me that UO2 could be used as a catalyst for such a chemical reaction. In fact, the only catalytic employment of UO2 I've come across was some obscure soviet-era chemical process that had nothing to do with Methanol production. I am not, however, a chemical engineer so perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe someone who is can shed light on this?
What I do know is that there was a fascinating documetary video "Japan's Atomic Bomb" (still available) whose producers interviewed surviving Japanese nuclear scientists in which they related that they in making requests to Germany for supplies of Uranium Oxide they would 'camouflage' their request with a plausibly-sounding cover-story to make it seem credible even though they pretty much guessed that the Germans weren't fooled.
So, Methanol production, or Atomic bomb production? Can anyone definitively prove what U-234's U-235 was to have been used for?

 

[ThomasP]

I can not prove that U-235 cannot be used as a catalyst in Methanol production, but as far as I know there is no proof that U-234 carried any U-235 (in any form by any method) either. Do not misunderstand me, there is no reason to think that the U-235 could not have been shipped, I am just saying that I have never heard of any actual evidence (that it was shipped) that someone can access today.

Methanol is often synthesized from natural gas using a catalytic method, but as far as I know U-235 has never been used in the process. Methanol has at times been used to increase the octane number of gasoline, in the same manner as Ethanol is used today.

 

[Shinpachi]

As Japan and Germany signed the Japan-Germany Manufacturing Rights and Raw Material Supply Agreement (日独製造権及原材料供給協定) in March, 1944 to supply any technologies and materials both countries wanted each other, it would be no wonder even if the U-234 was loaded Uranium 235. Japan had an uranium mine in Fukushima and more hopeful one in North Korea to develop atomic bombs but the quantity was not enough.

I have not heard of the uranium for the methanol production at all.

 

[swampyankee]

According to this article (Catalytic methanol industry production | Last 100 years and the future ), uranium was used as a catalyst. I've not looked, but I would be very surprised if there was significant difference in catalytic behavior between the different isotopes of uranium. Separating U235 from U238 is hard enough so it's unlikely one would use U235 for anything except blowing stuff up and powering warships

 

[ThomasP]

Hey swampyankee,

Thanks for the info & link. I am not a chemical engineer, nor have I ever been involved in the manufacture of Methanol, but I have read a great deal on the subject of fuel and other petrochemical products due to my interest in military matters. During my reading I have never previously run across the mention of Uranium being used in any of the processes, I am surprised that it can be used as a catalyst in the Methanol process. After you posted the above I typed in "uranium used in methanol production" and got quite a few valid hits. Interesting, I learn something new from you guys every day on this forum. + + + + = +

Does any one have any idea how common the use of Uranium has been in the manufacture of Methanol (or other petrochemical products)?

 

[Shinpachi]

Uranium 235 was a magic material to win the war for the Japanese leaders. According to the testimony by Ryohei Nakane (1921- ) as a survivor of Japanese atomic bomb project team settled in Riken Laboratory in Tokyo during the wartime, his boss Dr. Yoshio Nishina (1890-1951) did not necessarily believe that atomic bomb could be realized in the 20th century but his nuclear energy study had been given top priority with the endless money and material support by Tojo in 1943. His laboratory had been destroyed by air-raid in the spring of 1945 but Japanese leaders did not give up the project until the war was over. Nakane testifies that even Kamikaze pilots were encouraged by the project to die for their country.

Source: RIKEN NEWS
Riken news. 2006年 (3月) (297) - 国立国会図書館デジタルコレクション
Riken news. 2006年 (4月) (298) - 国立国会図書館デジタルコレクション

 

[swampyankee]

Hey swampyankee,

Thanks for the info & link. I am not a chemical engineer, nor have I ever been involved in the manufacture of Methanol, but I have read a great deal on the subject of fuel and other petrochemical products due to my interest in military matters. During my reading I have never previously run across the mention of Uranium being used any of the processes, I am surprised that it can be used as a catalyst in the Methanol process. After you posted the above I typed in "uranium used in methanol production" and got quite a few valid hits. Interesting, I learn something new from you guys every day on this forum. + + + + = +

Does any one have any idea how common the use of Uranium has been in the manufacture of Methanol (or other petrochemical products)?

I think the answer is "not very"; methanol production tends to use transition metals, like copper and zinc. My chemistry background is pretty limited (I've only taken 19 credits of chemistry, and, while I took organic chemistry, I never took an organic lab), and I don't know industrial chemistry at all.

 

[ThomasP]

Prior to this thread I figured all of the industrial Methanol cracking (from natural gas) was done using either iron, or some combination of copper, zinc, and aluminum or chromium. Cool stuff.

 

[xylstra]

Great responses guys! Really filled out the topic. But inevitably, it diverges into yet further questions. Where did Japan produce/procure it'd Methanol supplies? Even if they did employ a UO2 catalyst (I tend to concur that this is unlikely given the general scarcity of UO2) did they develop their own unique process or did they license it (e.g. from the Germans - so how did the latter produce theirs?)? So in that case was the U-234 shipment the first seed stock or was it a replenishment delivery - so for how long had they been manufacturing and what output volume?
By the way, I recall seeing a copy of the U-234 manifest confirming that the U-234 was shipped. The big mystery is what the US did with it when it was surrendered.

 

[yosimitesam]

Since the Germans and Japanese shared military methods and technology (sometimes), and the Germans definitely experimented with uranium cored armor-piercing ammunition (for aircraft canon used as anti-tank weapons, particularly 30mm), the uranium shipments were probably intended for this, i.e. a supply of uranium to be used as an experimental replacement for scarce tungsten in armor-piercing rounds for aircraft canon. It was generally known that uranium was also pyrophoric in the sense that when struck or scraped it spontaneously ignited and this would make it even better than tungsten for the AP core of these projectiles. Speer mentions uranium being used for this in his book. He authorized the use of their uranium stockpiles for AP ammunition development when tungsten was becoming difficult to obtain. Postwar examination of German munitions research shows several instances of tests of AP rounds using uranium. The problem was that uranium was scarce also, but some was available in Europe. The uranium shipments that are talked about (re: atomic bomb) so much are, in my opinion, just a "tempest in a teapot." This was all about materials for AP munitions construction using alternatives to tungsten and not about nebulous conspiracies of atomic bomb development.

"It much easier to fool someone than to convice them that they've been fooled." - Mark Twain

 

[swampyankee]

There were uranium mines in Central Europe (the former Czechoslovakia, Bohemia, Saxony). They were close to shut down when interest in use of uranium as a glass pigment (History of Uranium Mining in Central Europe | IntechOpen) fell off.

 

[xylstra]

Since the Germans and Japanese shared military methods and technology (sometimes), and the Germans definitely experimented with uranium cored armor-piercing ammunition (for aircraft canon used as anti-tank weapons, particularly 30mm), the uranium shipments were probably intended for this, i.e. a supply of uranium to be used as an experimental replacement for scarce tungsten in armor-piercing rounds for aircraft canon. It was generally known that uranium was also pyrophoric in the sense that when struck or scraped it spontaneously ignited and this would make it even better than tungsten for the AP core of these projectiles. Speer mentions uranium being used for this in his book. He authorized the use of their uranium stockpiles for AP ammunition development when tungsten was becoming difficult to obtain. Postwar examination of German munitions research shows several instances of tests of AP rounds using uranium. The problem was that uranium was scarce also, but some was available in Europe. The uranium shipments that are talked about (re: atomic bomb) so much are, in my opinion, just a "tempest in a teapot." This was all about materials for AP munitions construction using alternatives to tungsten and not about nebulous conspiracies of atomic bomb development.

"It much easier to fool someone than to convice them that they've been fooled." - Mark Twain

A very informative respone that adds another dimension to the UO2 end-use options. Don't quite get the relevance of the Twain quote; rather seems to me to be more a case of easier to fool yourself with presumptions through not doing your basic research - help from other deceivers not required, all DIY. Apart from purely academic sources I suggest you firstly should have taken the trouble to see the documentary video I quoted which included the interview with an actual Japanese atomic weapon scientist who was central in Japanese WW2 atomic weapons development. There have also been othet recent post-war discoveries of 'lost' notebooks detailing the work.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey xylstra,

re the "documentary" you reference above, I am sorry but it is largely junk. Did you notice that none of the Japanese interviewed said that their nuclear program managed to make an A-bomb? That none of them said that they had enriched enough U-235 to make an A-bomb, or were even close to having enough to make an A-bomb? The only people saying things like that were the so-called American experts-investigators-historians-interviewers-reporters.

Also, the storyline reminds me of the same storyline used to explain why the Germans were actually much further ahead than anyone not in the know knows due to obfuscation by the American (and presumably British/French/Dutch/Belgian/Norwegian/Russian/. . .) government, and that they had managed to set off at least one atomic bomb somewhere in the area of western Russia that only those in the know know about. And that the only reason the US was able to do what it did when it did was due to capturing German technology (ie Little Boy, see this thread: "German Aircraft that could deliver The Bomb" particularly the last half, including things like this: "German Aircraft that could deliver The Bomb" and this "German Aircraft that could deliver The Bomb".
It is also the same pattern of storyline that is used in many disinformation campaigns.

In addition, there are almost as many speculations/variations of what type of Uranium was transported by U-234, and what it was contained in, and where in the sub it was carried, as there are authors - most of whom state in no uncertain terms which are the correct type/container/location.

"Among the three hundred ton cargo . . . and ten canisters containing 560 kg (1,235 lbs.) of uranium oxide (U235). The uranium oxide was to be used by the Japanese as a catalyst for the production of synthetic methanol used for aviation fuel." (Scalia)
and
"That the ship carried 1,200 pounds (540 kg) of uranium oxide remained classified for the duration of the Cold War. Author and historian Joseph M. Scalia claimed to have found a formerly secret cable at Portsmouth Navy Yard which stated that the uranium oxide had been stored in gold-lined cylinders rather than cubes as reported by Hirschfeld.
and
"According to the book "Hirschfeld: The Secret Diary of a U-boat" by Brooks, Hirschfeld apparently stood on the bridge watching two Japanese senior officers on their hands and knees on the foredeck yet was able to see them writing "U-235" on ten 9-inch square containers that were then put into one of the submarine's vertical mine shaft containers. . . nor was it ever in any of the vertical bow containers; it was in fact stored in containers located in horizontal compartments on either side of the U-boat." (Note that the U235 information is not taken directly from the diary, but is included in the last 2 chapters of the book, based on statements Brooks claims Hirschfeld made during verbal interviews)
and
". . . the surrender of submarine U-234 and its cargo of enriched uranium and infrared fuses allowed the Manhattan Project to complete and drop its bombs on Japan in time to meet an important mid-August 1945 deadline for war planners. "Without the surrender of U-234 we would not have been able to make the uranium bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima or the plutonium bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki, and would probably not have had a bomb of our own until late 1945 or early 1946." Hydrick in "Critical Mass: How Nazi Germany Surrendered Enriched Uranium for the United States' Atomic Bomb". Hydrick also presents evidence that indicates infrared fuses found on the German submarine were used to fix problems the project scientists were having with the triggering mechanism for the plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki.
and
A declassified transcript of a secret telephone conversation held at the end of May 1945 at Portsmouth NH involves the discussion of the destination for assay of 80 cases of "U-powder" unloaded from U-234. "U-powder" is natural uranium powder. U-234 radio operator Wolfgang Hirschfeld reported seeing "more than 50" lead cases about the size of a car battery and wrapped in brown paper stenciled "U-235" (uranium) being loaded aboard U-234 at Kiel. Unenriched uranium powder would not require to be packed in small lead containers for biological shielding. These 80 cases do not feature on the USN Unloading List. The German Loading Manifest has never been released. (Gunson)
and
". . . and apparently successfully test blasted a bomb near Hungnam in Korea two days after Hiroshima." (Gunson)
and
". . . within four days personnel from the Office of Naval Intelligence had brought U-234's second watch officer, Karl Pfaff - who had not been brought to Washington with the original batch of high-level prisoners, but who had overseen loading of the U-boat in Germany - to Washington and interrogated him. They quickly radioed Portsmouth:

Pfaff prepared manifest list and knows kind documents and
cargo in each tube. Pfaff states...uranium oxide loaded in
gold cylinders and as long as cylinders not opened can be
handled like crude TNT. These containers should not be
opened as substance will become sensitive and dangerous

and on and on and on . . .

In addition, the information that Japan was doing nuclear research (including for both reactors and weapons) was common knowledge post war. It was even written up in school history books. I know this because I included it in one of my early-1970s high school papers for history class. How advanced they were was not common knowledge, but that they were actually more advanced in nuclear research than the Germans in some instances was known.

Sorry, but this all reminds me of the "documentary" on the Samurai sword (also originally aired on one of the A&E channels) and the lost secrets of how it was made. Supposedly an American sword maker rediscovered the lost secret of how Samurai swords (the good ones of course) were made. In the documentary not one Japanese person was asked anything about how the swords were made. If they had asked a Japanese swordmaker the "documentarians" would have had to admit that the Japanese artisans have been making the Samurai type swords using the "lost" methods continuously for the last thousand(?) years.

 

[xylstra]

I think you're wandering off the reservation somewhere. You can'tseriously think anyone of normal intelligence (including me!) believes that Japan developed, much less detonated an atomic bomb? That part of the documentary is nuts but it appears only at the end. Remind me again; exactly where in all my postings on this subject did I either state or infer that Japan had produced an Atomic bomb?? "Huh?" Producing and developing a nuclear weapon are entirely two different things. The rest (and bulk) of the documentary is authoritative as it merely re-states known, and newly discovered facts. The discovery of the WW2 lab report and the ensuing interview with the Japanese scientist is priceless and offers credible testimony for how they proceeded with the task of enrichment. I am assuming here that we are both talking about the same documentary.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey xylstra,

I did not say that you believed that the Japanese set off an A-bomb. I just said that the documentary was largely junk.

Yes it was neat to see the interviews with the Japanese scientists, but what did the scientists actually say? Basically they said that the Japanese nuclear program existed, and that it was fairly advanced in certain areas, with the Japanese document saying that they may have figured out a way to produce weapon grade concentrations of U-235, and that the US destroyed the cyclotrons. Most (90%?) of the other stuff is not in any way authoritative, as no one has been able to find the 'newly' discovered documents (or the 'oldly' discovered), or otherwise corroborate the information that was supposedly taken from interviews with people who are now dead (somewhat understandable) such as Hirschfeld - since, heaven forbid, the authors should have made video recordings with audio. The reason I listed the variations on a theme in my post above is that most of the crap in the "documentary" was taken from the works of the authors of the variations I listed, whether it was Brooks, Scalia, Gunson, etc. Their reasons for not being able to produce actual evidence is invariably that any evidence was destroyed in order to keep the Japanese efforts/successes secret from someone/anyone/who-knows-who, or just nothing when they are asked to produce the documents that they claim they discovered.

The term "junk history" exists for good reason.

 

[xylstra]

We could always avoid the argument by just having a good, old-fashioned book burning since you seem to think it's junk:
New evidence of Japan's effort to build atom bomb at the end of WWII
..... read!

 

[ThomasP]

I read the article shortly after it came out.

re my post#13: "In addition, the information that Japan was doing nuclear research (including for both reactors and weapons) was common knowledge post war. It was even written up in school history books. I know this because I included it in one of my early-1970s high school papers for history class. How advanced they were was not common knowledge, but that they were actually more advanced in nuclear research than the Germans in some instances was known."

 

[swampyankee]

It's not like the concept of an atomic bomb wasn't widely known throughout the physics community; Leo Szilard and Einstein sent the famous letter to Roosevelt for that very reason: there was every expectation that Germany would be developing such a weapon. Lord knows the nazis had already shown a perfect willingness to target and kill civilians on ideological grounds (see, among other things, Kristallnacht and the bombing of Guernica) and had an ideology based on conquest of countries to their east (especially) and enslavement of the Slavs and elimination of Jews in Europe.

In any case, the idea of being able to construct an atomic bomb was considered a theoretical possibility before WW2 (the Szilard-Einstein letter was written in August 1939); it was widespread knowledge in the physics community. That Japan and Germany had atomic weapons programs isn't surprising. On the other hand, I seriously doubt that either Japan or Germany actually constructed and tested one, simply because a) there's no reason to conceal either country's success, as it would make their defeat even better and b) keeping anything secret for 75 years is hard. Jefferson couldn't even keep his "affair" with Sally Hemings secret, and he certainly didn't want it spread about that he was boffing a 15 year old.

 

[Shinpachi]

The Japanese had no idea about uranium for the methanol production.

According to an IJA report "Synthetic Oil" issued by the Army Fuel Research Laboratory dated August 1, 1945, Uranium is listed as one of the possible catalysts to produce synthetic gasoline from H2/CO gas which was extracted from coal but is not used in actual production. Cobalt was mainly used. Uranium was not considered for the methanol production at all.

Source:
合成石油 昭和２０年８月１日 陸軍燃料研究所

 

[ThomasP]

Thank you, Shinpachi.