cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 539
- Apr 23, 2007
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In war time it is the governments choice what people do, you can conscript them to be soldiers or factory workers.As you also do in wartime if there is no surplus of the workforce needed to form additional shift or two.
I was discussing aviation and manpower. Germany had a greater population than UK. After Anschluss with Austria and occupation of Czechoslovakia it was almost double the UK population. In 1940 after the fall of Poland, France Netherlands, Belgium Norway Denmark and forming an alliance with Italy the population of the whole lot combined was greater than the USA, after taking control of the Balkans it was about the same as the USA + UK combined, you cannot possibly talk about labour shortages. At the time of Barbarossa Germany and its axis invaded Russia with almost 4 million men, this after over 100,000 had already surrendered in North Africa. List of countries by population in 1939 - WikipediaFine by me
slave labour for that matter were more a post-Barbarossa thing.
Companies like Junkers used no slave labour.
Preparation for Barbarossa, whether for Luftwaffe operations or ground forces campaigns, starts off with shooting Hitler.The problem is, as identified by others here is that Germany is committed to too many fronts by 1941/42 and although it had many successes, time simply ran out because they couldn't sustain all of them in a realistic fashion over time. Not least because of the dysfunctional management of the war by the topmost rung of the Nazi personnel structure...
Go for it. Dec. 1940, Luftwaffe head, Goering shoots Hitler.Preparation for Barbarossa, whether for Luftwaffe operations or ground forces campaigns, starts off with shooting Hitler.
25 Dec 1940 headline HITLER DEAD.Go for it. Dec. 1940, Luftwaffe head, Goering shoots Hitler. Hitler or no, Germany must either invade Russia asap. What does the Luftwaffe do now?
That seems like the only path forward. No way the Germans surrender Poland though, in their mind that's ethnic/historic German territory. Instead of Barbarossa in summer 1941, the western powers (NATO, without the USA) will be facing Operation Bagration, or essentially Clancy's Red Storm Rising by 1942.Stalin remains the oppressor of Poland, we (Germany France & UK) should keep our eyes peeled on the Red Slav Menace.
I was discussing aviation and manpower. Germany had a greater population than UK. After Anschluss with Austria and occupation of Czechoslovakia it was almost double the UK population. In 1940 after the fall of Poland, France Netherlands, Belgium Norway Denmark and forming an alliance with Italy the population of the whole lot combined was greater than the USA, after taking control of the Balkans it was about the same as the USA + UK combined, you cannot possibly talk about labour shortages. At the time of Barbarossa Germany and its axis invaded Russia with almost 4 million men, this after over 100,000 had already surrendered in North Africa. List of countries by population in 1939 - Wikipedia
I was talking about people in Europe, I missed out the populations of the colonies of Netherlands and Belgium too. You missed the bit where Germany declared war on USA too.Funnily enough your own Wikipedia population list starts of with Britain and its empire at 550 million people. These micro factoids about the German controlled European population being bigger than the UK US are contradicted.
Germany had full employment before the war, when war started there were no large reserves of unexploited labour to increase labour supply significantly.
Multiple historians have pointed that out or something near to it Adam Tooze is but one. You can argue "Black Knight" like with them if you like. You seem to want to say the British were organisationally superior, the Germans disorganised and corrupt. There is no evidence of that.
Full employment had been a key policy of the NSDAP which was a workers party, their grip on power depended on it being seen so.
The nonsense that Germany was not on a war time economy probably originated with a haughty rhetorician like Kershaw. The guy never really made much sense when you saw over his endless pompous acid rhetoric. Clearly after the BoB there would be a reorganisation but that is not the same as peace time footing.
Britain consisted not only of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but of the Commonwealth including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia (north and South) the various Caribbean countries (which had oil) and also India/Ceylon. All of these countries immediately (within 1 day) went to war with Britain against Germany. They all supplied not only man power but resources money and military personnel. Combined these are vastly larger than Austria-Germany. (Austria has a tiny population)
England was so great full to Jamaicans and West Indians they welcomed many into London and now over half the population of London is from Asian and Caribbean populations whose contributions ensured Britain won the war.
As far as Occupied Europe goes it is not easy to exploit.
1 These occupied countries are with rare exception, lacking in vital mineral resources such as oil, copper, tin, rubber, superphosphate, chromium and nickel. Even Iron had to come from Sweden. The German coal to oil industry had to supply all of Europe apart from moderate supplies from Romania. Britain had access to all of these and more.
2 The occupied territories do not supply a great amount of military recruit apart from some Waffen SS volunteers, admittedly usually outstandingly and motivated.
3 The occupied territories are difficult to exploit for manufacturing since much of their population is not motivated to fight although many did sympathise
4 Many of these countries are not heavily industrialised or lack coal or oil. Neither Italy or France have oil or coal. Britain had coal and it had the USA.
Then we have US assistance:
1940 September 2nd: Destroyers-for-bases deal.: US gives 50 free destroyers to Britain. More than the entire German navy ever hard. This is while the BoB is still on.
1941 March 11 Lend Lease Agreement: Eventually funded 45% of Britain's munitions.
1941 May/June. Neutrality Patrols. 6 months before war US destroyers begin escorting British convoys over half way across the Atlantic before handing over to the Royal Navy. This is 6 months before Pearl Harbour and subsequent German declaration of war.
In early 1940 we also had the US offering ship repair facilities and in June 1940 the Tizard mission swapped radar and other secrets with the US.
Lend lease if supplied to Germany instead of Britain would have within months doubled German aircraft and tank forces at Barbarossa (June 22 1941)
I didn't miss it:I was talking about people in Europe, I missed out the populations of the colonies of Netherlands and Belgium too. You missed the bit where Germany declared war on USA too.
Lets start with the invasion of Poland and move on to sinking of US vessels? I know it is common now for everyone to be a victim but portraying Adolf and Herman as a victim of anything is a real lark.I didn't miss it:
"1941 May/June. Neutrality Patrols. 6 months before war US destroyers begin escorting British convoys over half way across the Atlantic before handing over to the Royal Navy. This is 6 months before Pearl Harbour and subsequent German declaration of war. "
The US was committing several acts of war on Germany before formal hostilities. The Roosevelt organised US Navy Neutrality Patrols attacked German U-boats 5.5 months before the formal German declaration of war on the US. Hater ordered the U-boat commanders not to attack US escorts unless they were in danger.
Lend Lease itself is sufficient reason for war.
So with neutrality patrols, lend lease, boycotting of German trade, non payment of money for German exports etc USN reconnaissance in favour of the British (all before the war) Hitler had exhibited 9-12 months of patience. He perhaps should have exhibited more and allowed the Japanese to to draw away American focus for a few months into the pacific while increasing propaganda and keeping the u-boat war moderate for another month before intensifying the U-boat war secretly.
Seems a lot simpler than other proposed plans.Preparation for Barbarossa, whether for Luftwaffe operations or ground forces campaigns, starts off with shooting Hitler.
Trick is, with all these Nazis dead, who takes over? Trading on his convenient name and PR mix-ups, Wilhelm Kaiser makes his move!, although depending on when in 1940 Hitler dies depends on his influence with the Fuhrer - after the failure of the Luftwaffe in subjugating Britain, Goering's sheen faded a bit in the Fuhrer's eyes, which means he might not have automatically been chosen as a successor. It's a crazy what-if to try and predict.
Well, getting back to preparing for Barbarossa,
Building 1000 or so long range bombers for attacking targets in the Soviet Union would have been an absolute gift to the Soviets.
Thousands fewer tactical aircraft.
Much less fuel for the tactical aircraft.
Bomb supply?
Ground crew?
Timing gets strained. To have 1000 bombers available in June of 1941 means production (not prototypes) had to have started in the summer or even spring of 1940, using engines and weapons available in 1940, Doesn't matter what the Germans made in 1942 unless you have time machines.
Changes have to be minor or production is interrupted/slowed down.
How do the Germans navigate over the Soviet Union? Assuming they still believe the beams will work over the SU they are not going to have the range needed for the more distant targets.
Once the Front moves forward then new bases can be established moving the base infrastructure for squadrons of 4 engine bombers will be harder than for the same number of squadrons of twin engine aircraft. Keeping the long range bombers supplied hundreds of miles into previous Soviet Union territory would cut into the logistics capacity of the tactical units and/or ground units.
Germans have no long range escorts and even drop tanks on 109s is not going to cut it.