Hurrican evolution - you are the boss ;)

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Mar 14, 2012.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,987
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The timeline might be something like this: after fall of Poland, it is too obvious that Germany will turn West. The RAF has a number of Hurricanes, but the mass production of Spitfires is not up to the pace yet. So despite having the better design to follow, the Hurricane will need all updates it can receive, in order to stay competitive in future.
    The updates should not hamper the mass production too badly, maybe best if introduced gradually through time. The modifications/updates can use stuff historically produced only - no Hispano Vs in 1941, no two-stage Merlins for BoB. The overweight parts should be avoided :)
    A part of the thread can be devoted for a plausible production in Canada, maybe even Australia. If you want to upgrade it to the VJ day, feel free to do so.
     
  2. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    791
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Pretty much do what they did. Stop making them a little sooner in 1944?

    They got the Merlin XX which the Spitfire never got in an attempt to upgrade them. It helped a lot in 1940/early 1941 but after that the Hurricane was a ground attack plane compared to a 109.

    Sticking a Hercules in it isn't going to do a darn thing for performance. At any given time even if the Hercules can offer more power it has more drag which kills any possible advantage. Sticking a Sabre in it is not going to happen. An extra 1000-1500lbs of power plant weight is going to call for so much redesign they might as well just keep working on the Typhoon/Tornado/Tempest.

    Pretty much leaves changing the guns. And if you stick to the ones historically available you are pretty much stuck with what they did. Hispanos going in the spring of 1941?
     
  3. herman1rg

    herman1rg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,147
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Evolve the fuselage to full metal skinning, thin the wing.
     
  4. herman1rg

    herman1rg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,147
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Later versions would have bubble canopy and lower fuselage between rear of cockpit at tail fin (as on P-47)
     
  5. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    791
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    Metal skinning is going to be heavier unless you change the underlying structure ( metal skinned steel tube framing doesn't give you much advantage).

    Thinning the wing means new jigs and fixtures for the ribs. A restressed and modified main and aux spars. And so on.

    If you stick a new wing and a new fuselage on it, it is not a Hurricane any longer.
     
  6. herman1rg

    herman1rg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,147
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I did say evolve, not total re-design
     
  7. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    After June 1941 most of the Luftwaffe was on the Russian Front. The RAF had more short range fighter aircraft then needed. So cancel the Hurricane and use those Merlin engines for something more useful like a long range ASW aircraft.
     
  8. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,334
    Likes Received:
    402
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Motor Mechanic
    Location:
    Lancashire
    Bring the dedicated low level MkV version into production as early as possible for use in the desert and Burma. Its nothing revolutionary the Merlin 32 was available in mid 42 and could possibly be pushed a lot earlier. The universal wing and extra armour are also nothing special. wiki says it could do 326mph at 500 ft pretty good for an aging lady.
     
  9. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,334
    Likes Received:
    402
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Motor Mechanic
    Location:
    Lancashire
    Build a folding wing SeaHurricane it would be a competitive navy fighter till 42 or even early 43.
     
  10. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Britain was receiving large numbers of U.S. made P-40s by 1941 and they have the option to acquire large numbers of A-20 light bombers. What can a Hurricane MkV accomplish that these Lend-Lease aircraft cannot accomplish?
     
  11. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,987
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The Hurricane II and P-40F/L make for a good comparison. All data from Mike Williams' site:

    At 7330 lbs, Hurri IIB (12 x 0.303 in LMGs) was slower (330 mph at 20800 ft) than P-40F at 8900 lbs (358 mph at 20400 ft). Rate of climb is 2020 ft/min at SL for the P-40F, 1300-1500 ft/min at 20000 ft. Hurri was good for 2700 ft/min at 1000 ft, 1740 ft/min at 20000 ft - no great discoveries here, Hurri was far lighter.
    The Hurri IIC, with cannons, would increase the weight to 7560 lbs, so the climb is some 2500+ ft/min at SL, 1700 at 20000 ft, speed reduced by some '3-4 mph', according to the same source. So the drag is increased, too.

    Obviously, the P-40 has the edge in drag. Hurricane has a tick wing (appreciate if someone can post the real numbers), and some 10% more wing area. The other main difference is the under slung radiator, protruding into air stream. Interestingly enough, such a configuration was tried in the XP-40, and discarded because it was found to be too draggy (relocated under the engine in further (X)P-40s).
    P-40F has another advantage, the fuel carried internally. 699 lbs vs. 942 (other P-40s vary +-5%), or 35% more.

    Doh, nothing like comparing two underdogs :)

    The picture is from Flight magazine.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,334
    Likes Received:
    402
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Motor Mechanic
    Location:
    Lancashire
    Not very knowledgeable about P 40 but wasnt the P40F/L a bit later than the Hurricane II. Wouldnt the earlier models be a truer comparison.
     
  13. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,987
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The comparison make sense since they used basically the same engine - the single stage Merlin derivative. I agree that P-40F/L were later designs, but they brought no breakthroughs in the time of the introduction. This is not, however, the comparison or poll, we can stea...umm... borrow a feature or two from P-40 line for our Hurries :)

    The thread should deal with FAA needs, that's a good call :)
     
  14. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    US Warplanes
    At the beginning of 1942 I would expect lots of P-40E. Later in the year P-40F, P-40K, P-40L and P-40M would start to arrive.

    Why didn't Britain make more extensive use of the A-20 light bomber? It's got to be better then a Hurricane or P-40 for CAS.
     
  15. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Japan
    Keep Hawker's factories busy? :lol:


    More seriously, the RAF considered the Hurricane a more capable fighter than the P-40 until improved Kittyhawks started arriving in late 1941/early 1942.

    Earlier production of the Hurricane Mk IID/E/IV/V gives the RAF a dedicated ground attack aircraft with decent, accurate armament (in the 40 mm S gun) and moderate armour (about 350 lbs additional around radiator, engine and pilot).

    The g/a Hurricanes had quite heavy armament:

    4 x 20 mm cannon

    2 x 250 lbs or 2 x 500 lbs bombs

    8 X 60 lbs RP

    2 x 40 mm S cannon and 2 x .303

    It could also mount 2 x 44 gal drop tanks

    There were lots of asymmetric armament combinations. Common load outs included:
    4 RPs and a 44 gal drop tank (used in Italy);
    1 S gun and 4 x RPs (used in Italy and Burma);
    1 S gun and 1 x 250 lbs bomb (used in Africa/Italy)
    1 x 500 lb bomb and 2 or 4 RPs
     
  16. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,334
    Likes Received:
    402
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Motor Mechanic
    Location:
    Lancashire
    Waterproofing the Hurricane my ideas for a better SeaHurricane. First off hand it over to Fairey in 1937 they know how to build a naval aircraft and Hawker can get on with the Typhoon/Tempest.

    A new folding wing similar in folding style to the Hellcat, move the radiator to the chin position, whilst your designing a new wing move the undercarrige outwards or using Tomos idea alter the U/C to a P40 style rearward retracting type, fit a stinger type hook, change the canopy to a Malcolm bubble type or just remove the fairing behind the cockpit and replace it with plexiglass, space for an 45 gal overload tank behind the pilot (though that might do nasty things to the deck handling), bigger tailfin, retractable tail wheel, stress for divebombing, keep the universal wing armament (apparently everything short of a kitchen sink could be bolted on) and finally fit the 20 or 30 series engines with a blower set up for low level.

    The space gained on the centreline can be use for a bomb shackle and release gear for dive bombing or a 90 gal drop tank. The range is going to be a lot better with 2x45 tanks under the wings and 90 centreline.

    In the early part of the war your going to have a Fighter/dive bomber/attack aircraft capable of mixing it with all aircraft its going to come across till it meets the Zero and even then a longer range 1700hp SeaHurricane would probably be able to mix it better with the Zero as long as it stayed low and fast. When better aircraft replace it in the FAA you still have a very useful ground attack aircraft for use in the east.
     
  17. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,987
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Now, that would be some redesign :)

    I'd like to see the radiator relocated under the chin, too, that should add some speed and improve ditching abilities - no more the water brake sticking under the fuselage. Maybe even adopt the power egg configuration from Beaufighter other bombers? Miles M.20 prototype jumped at that opportunity back in 1940.
    The wing fold a-la F4U or SB2C is okay with me, perhaps it would be faster to accomplish? The weapon pack could include 2 x 20mm plus 4 x LMG (later replaced by 2 x HMG). One cannon it's ammo should use the space freed by deleting another cannon to maybe double the rounds carried. The LMGs would be located in outboard locations, as it was case with additional 4 LMGs that Hurri IIB was carrying. The wing should be folding between LMGs and outer cannon bay. Such a plane should be aboard from Summer 1941, a version with LMGs only a year earlier.
    We certainly need more fuel, maybe about 30 imp gals just after the pilot for the starters?
    The bubble top is a must, some time in 1943. But there were some British planes with bubble top even in 1940 (Miles M.20, with W. Whirlwind coming close to that), so we can use their hint, too. In 1943 we have a plane that looks much like that XP-40N prototype with bubble top. If not, the Malcolm hood is fine, too.
    The ground based Hurri should have all the features (minus the naval requirements), and there I'd like to clip some wings - we have plenty of the wing area anyway. A 4-bladed prop with uprated single-stage Merlins looks great.
     
  18. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,179
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    Why not get Fairey to make their own s/e single seat carrier fighter, instead of two seaters?

    Hawkers were already working on a successor to the Hurricane (which would eventually become the Tornado/Typhoon - the Tempest was later).


    Why? Wouldn't a simpler folding mechanism be cheaper and easier to adapt to an existing airframe?


    What's the advantage in this? Just getting centreline spacing?


    Wouldn't a rearward retracting u/c be more complicated and heavier? Note that the Hellcat also used the rearward retracting u/c.


    Do you mean a teardrop canopy as used on late model Spitfires, P-51Ds and Typhoons? Or the Malcolm hood used for the early Spits, some P-51Bs? I would say that the teardop canopy would be of greater value than the Malcolm hood or using plexiglass on teh rear fairing. It would give much better all around visibility.

    Not sure that such things existed in 1937, though.


    Since you're basically redesigning the aircraft I can't see why you don't shift other stuff around to make it so the rear tank doesn't affect stability so much. Maybe relocating the radiator to the nose will actually help with that?


    Why? Is this a fighter or a dive bomber? Won't the extra strength lead to a weight increase and degradatiion of perfomance? Did the Hurricane have a problem of insffucient vertical stabiliser/rudder area?


    Merlin XX doesn't exist in 1937. You're stuck with the Mk 3 (IIRC) until the XX became available historically. Which would be too late to make these major modifications.


    Sure the range will be extended a lot. But will performance be any better than teh actual Sea Hurricane?


    Would it really?

    When are you going to get 1700hp Merlins for the FAA? I'd wager it be well into 1943/44. Long after even your Sea Hurricane will be considered obsolete and not worthy of such attention.

    By then the Hellcat and F4U will stat to become available.

    You've basically changed the whole purpose of the Hurricane.
     
  19. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    There are plenty of other things Hawker could build. Why not Mosquitoes rather then building the "Wooden Wonder" in Canada?
     
  20. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    7,511
    Likes Received:
    943
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Hurricane was at the end of a developmental line that had been superceded by the stressed skin monocoque fighters like the Spitfire and Bf109. It's mixed wood/metal/doped fabric construction harked back to an earlier generation of aircraft. It was developed about as far as it could be during the war years.

    I hope all those of you proposing folding wings have figured out a simple way of folding a 40' wingspan and still fitting it into the hangar deck of a British carrier. The Seafire had less span (over 3' less) and still required a rather inelegant second fold outboard of the ailerons. :)

    The Hurricane had plenty of fin,it did suffer from problems early in development with the rudder stalling,hence the underside strake.

    Cheers
    Steve
     
Loading...

Share This Page