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If you want to send "stuff" from England to Singapore...there was a bunch of places that were all calling for help along the way and people were actually shooting at each other.
Fair points, and I did tell F Fatboy Coxy to expect such replies.Getting ANYTHING more to Malaya by the summer of 1941 means a decision in late-1940, The threat being faced in the Far East was also unclear at that timeframe.
I'm afraid all you're going to get are replies telling you/us why your proposal would not, could not or should not have occurred. It's the nature of the house I'm afraid.
Fair points, and I did tell F Fatboy Coxy to expect such replies.
I enjoy the challenge of a *what if* as it explores the realm of what may have happened by moving the chess pieces a bit differently.I actually like "what if" scenarios but they have to be based on some degree of reasonableness. A key indicator, for me, is whether the protagonists had enough information to make the decisions required for the scenario within the timelines necessary to change outcomes. In short, I try my very best not to apply the retrospectroscope. If that means I disagree with you, then so be it...but the alternative is "anything goes" which doesn't actually require a lot of thinking and ignores the challenges of bringing those scenarios to reality.
I agree, but I think we need to be a little more openminded. Imagine if Force Z had never been sent to Malaya, which is entirely plausible since many in the decision tree thought it should not be sent. So, things go as they did, Malaya falls, etc., but HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse stay in the Atlantic and MTO throughout 1941. Then, in 2022 someone suggests, what if Churchill and the RN had decided in October 1941 to send its newest battleship and one of its last two surviving battlecruisers, the one with nearly zero effective AA, plus four old destroyers but with no CV to Malaya as deterrent against Japan. Our resident contrarians would jump from their chairs, leaping at their keyboards to declare this as madness outside the realm of what was possible at that point in time. We'd get the same arguments about army or aircraft deployments to Malaya, that these assets are needed elsewhere, where there is an actual war going on, the KM and Italian surface fleets are still a threat, that Britain didn't know the Soviets would stop the Germans outside Moscow that coming winter, etc, etc. But damn, Churchill did that very thing, and sent his latest battleship and one of his last fast battlecruisers, the one with almost no AA to Malaya, with no CV air cover.... to its doom, all because Churchill was so concerned about Tirpitz in Norway that he thought the Japanese would be equally shaken.I enjoy the challenge of a *what if* as it explores the realm of what may have happened by moving the chess pieces a bit differently. As long as they remain in the realm of what was possible at that point in time.
You may be able to swap some Hurricanes for Buffaloes.Thank you for the replies, lots of good points. The idea of Hurricanes to Malaya, Buffalos to FAA, was more about exploring the idea of the Buffalo being in service with the FAA, which I think it could have been, considerably earlier than the Martlet. But as soon a I suggest that, the cry will be, you've denuded Malaya of its fighters. With the almost glut of Hurricanes being produced in 1941, and recognising they were no longer a premier fighter, some could have been sent to Malaya. It was talked about, strangely enough Admiral Tom Phillips was an advocate of the idea. This would have impacted on shipping, the distance from Liverpool to Singapore, around the Cape, is far far longer than Liverpool to Murmansk, for example, meaning you can ship a LOT more Hurricanes to Russia, although the Singapore run may be a safer journey. Another possibility on shipping Hurricanes to Singapore, could have been from the Canadian West Coast, across the Pacific, none of it requiringing convoying. But I digress.
Buffalos for the FAA. Using the F2A-3 data on wiki, the carrier version used by the USN, max take off weight is 7,159lb, with a 1,200 hp engine. I accept the FAA version might have been a bit heavier, how much armour do they have added? The Sea Hurricane, which is a bigger aircraft, has a max take off weight of 8,710 with a 1,185hp engine. which would suggest to me that the Buffalo would be a bit better, especially on smaller carriers, IE Eagle, Hermes and Audacity. Audacity shipped Martlets, but I think the FAA considered these their premier fighter, and may have settled on Buffalos for her role.
Lots of ifs and buts, starting with weights and engine ratings, burt te Buffalo was a smaller, lighter plane, a helpful point when shipping them on smaller carriers. They other point is I don't think the FAA was entirely swamped with extra aircrew, could some Buffalos have been used in a training capacity, or were aircraft like the Skua doing this role?
Wiki often lists max loads instead of common loads and when you are comparing different models things get complicated real quick.Buffalos for the FAA. Using the F2A-3 data on wiki, the carrier version used by the USN, max take off weight is 7,159lb, with a 1,200 hp engine. I accept the FAA version might have been a bit heavier, how much armour do they have added? The Sea Hurricane, which is a bigger aircraft, has a max take off weight of 8,710 with a 1,185hp engine.
I agree, but I think we need to be a little more openminded.
Imagine if Force Z had never been sent to Malaya, which is entirely plausible since many in the decision tree thought it should not be sent. So, things go as they did, Malaya falls, etc., but HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse stay in the Atlantic and MTO throughout 1941. Then, in 2022 someone suggests, what if Churchill and the RN had decided in October 1941 to send its newest battleship and one of its last two surviving battlecruisers, the one with nearly zero effective AA, plus four old destroyers but with no CV to Malaya as deterrent against Japan. Our resident contrarians would jump from their chairs, leaping at their keyboards to declare this as madness outside the realm of what was possible at that point in time.
One what'if I'd like to look at is what Britain would have done if they'd known in spring 1941, through codebreaking or other intel the true Japanese plans and likely late autumn 1941 timing for executing their attack on Malaya, the Philippines and DEI through rapid buildups in FIC, Thailand and Formosa, along with greater detail on the Pearl Harbour attack planning. Maybe there's nothing militarily Britain can change, IDK. Diplomatically things would be interesting.
HiYou may be able to swap some Hurricanes for Buffaloes.
Now the questions are how many and to what effect(and what kind)?
You only had a few experienced pilots per squadron. That doesn't change by fighter type. It doesn't change the early warning system/fighter ground control.
I would also take a look at the "glut" of Hurricanes produced in 1941, sure there several thousands. I don't have the figures for Hurricanes but they built about 2250 P-40s in 1941, almost of 1100 of them in the last 4 month (ALL P-40D &E), how many were in combat theaters in Dec 1941?
The idea of Canadian Hurricanes also needs a very careful examination.
For starters Packard built 45 Merlins in 1941, 26 in Dec and 10 in Nov so you can right off any idea Canada shipped Hurricanes with Packard engines to the West Coast, loading them on freighters and sending them to Singapore.
I have even seen one account (an obvious misprint ?) that claims that Canada built it's first Hurricane with Packard engine in Jan 1940, over 6 months before Packard even got a look at the blueprints.
Most accounts claim that about 1/3 of the Canadian Hurricanes were built with Packard engines and the rest of the Canadian Hurricanes were shipped without engines but that changed over the years. Early production was 100% British built Merlin's but I don't know how many they shipped to Canada in the early years. Most stories also also claim that the Hurricanes that were sent to England with Packard engines had the engines pulled (to use in bombers?) and the Hurricanes had their engines replaced by Merlin XX engines.
Now perhaps the British might have been able to send Merlin's to Canada, have them fitted in an appropriate number of Hurricanes and have them 100% equipped with combat gear (most of were not, radios and other gear (guns?) were fitted after they were uncrated in England) and sent off from the Vancouver docks. But this is a decision made by the British and not a short circuit made by one Commonwealth country helping out another one and bypassing the British.
Once we find the monthly production totals from Canada it can be judged how likely this scheme actually is. Any Hurricane needed has to be loaded onto the dock in Vancouver in Sept at the latest to do any good in Sept. So you can write off the 1/3 or more of the production total from Canada (which was probably higher per month than the earlier months)
Ok I have some production numbers.
So far it looks like at best 680 Hurricanes were built in Canada during the time available. Perhaps as little as 430 were available.
The idea of Hurricanes to Malaya, Buffalos to FAA, was more about exploring the idea of the Buffalo being in service with the FAA, which I think it could have been, considerably earlier than the Martlet.
With the almost glut of Hurricanes being produced in 1941, and recognising they were no longer a premier fighter, some could have been sent to Malaya. It was talked about, strangely enough Admiral Tom Phillips was an advocate of the idea. This would have impacted on shipping, the distance from Liverpool to Singapore, around the Cape, is far far longer than Liverpool to Murmansk, for example, meaning you can ship a LOT more Hurricanes to Russia, although the Singapore run may be a safer journey. Another possibility on shipping Hurricanes to Singapore, could have been from the Canadian West Coast, across the Pacific, none of it requiringing convoying. But I digress.
Thank you.
So 408 Hurricanes through June and 73 through July and Sept.
The major change was in May of 1941 (?). That was when the night blitz ended as the Germans flew off to prepare for the attack on the Soviet Union.I don't see any way that London would make such a call in late-1940 given what was known at the time.
The 71 Martlet I (10 were lost in transit from the US) from the French Order were received between Aug and Oct 1940.The Martlet MkI lacked folding wings so the British ordered a MkII variant that had folding wings. The Martlet MkIIs started arriving in the UK in March 1941 which, ironically, was exactly the time that RAF-ordered Buffalos (B339E) started arriving in Singapore. Reverting the B339E to be carrier-capable would almost certainly have delayed the delivery, unless such a decision was made in the autumn of 1940.
The 71 Martlet I (10 were lost in transit from the US) from the French Order were received between Aug and Oct 1940.
Britain placed an order for 100 Martlet II. 10 were delivered with fixed wings in March 1941 and were later retitled Mk.III along with 30 received in the Middle East in March/April 1941 from the Greek order. There was then a pause while Grumman developed the folding wing. The remaining 90 Martlet II were delivered, with folding wings, between Oct 1941 and April 1942. The first group from this batch were delivered to the UK in Dec 1941 when HMS Illustrious returned to the UK. These formed the basis of the equipment of 3 squadrons that went to the Far East in Feb / March 1942 aboard Formidable & Illustrious. The rest of the batch then followed direct to the Far East in early 1942.
ADM 1/11207
To CinC Home Fleet 6/7/40
American types currently available: Grumman F3F-2; Brewster F2A-1
Both obsolescent. Grumman F4F is current type. 81 of these have been offered to this country.
This a/c was thoroughly inspected and flown in America by a most experienced FAA pilot, and was later seen in operation by a member of the Naval Staff who spent a week in the USS Saratoga last summer.
They concluded that, while it is a good aeroplane of its class, it is not designed to meet the far more stringent seagoing requirements of the FAA (which include wing-folding and navigability), and is inferior for shore based interceptor duty to current RAF types.
All USN fleet fighters are under-gunned.
As none fold, unsuitable for any but Furious.
For all other Fleet Fighter sqns, Fulmar is considered a better all around a/c than the American or RAF types because of its combination of heavy armament, first class navigability and communications, and long endurance. Its speed is adequate for attacking all contemporary German bombers and shadowers. It will go into all carriers.
If we send all the Buffaloes to the FAA that likely means no single seat fighters whatsoever for Malaya. Had the Buffalo not been available this is likely what would have occurred, since Hurricanes are a no go. Even the Gloster Gladiator will be wanted in the MTO.Hi all, Hurricanes to Malaya, Buffalos to FAA, how would that work for the Royal Navy. How well can the Buffalos do for the FAA, and where would they deploy them?
Trouble is you are going back to your super rushed time table again.If we send all the Buffaloes to the FAA that likely means no single seat fighters whatsoever for Malaya. Had the Buffalo not been available this is likely what would have occurred, since Hurricanes are a no go. Even the Gloster Gladiator will be wanted in the MTO.
But if you can indulge me, my vote is for Britain to give all the Buffaloes to the Soviets and to keep all/most of the promised CC&F Hurricanes for themselves, including a priority for FAA Sea Hurricanes, shown below in production In Fort William.
View attachment 654792
Of course the non-folding Sea Hurricane is only suitable for the lifts on HMS Indomitable, Furious, Eagle and Argus. Had Courageous and Glorious have survived into 1942 they would have been more suitable Sea Hurricane platform, though their small avgas storage would be an issue.
But anyway, send the Buffaloes to the USSR, keep the Hurricanes from Canada for the RAF and FAA. That'll give the Buffalo-flying Finns something to think about.