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On dec 1st 1943 there were zero Mustang squadron supporting bombers and they had external tanks available from day 1. They are on all Packard/Melin Mustangs. There were no bugs to be worked out. With very little pilot familiarization they went straight into combat. Where do you get this stuff? A source every once in awhile would be nice.
You're saying nobody thought to put a drop tank on a jug before Feb 44? It's true the jugs far outnumber the mustangs in big week, but a quick look at the numbers of planes and numbers of kills shows astoundingly higher kill per sortie number on the mustangs. I'll zero in on that more if I can but you can see it clearly here. Even without the long range considerations the Mustang was a superior air to air weapon. The best of the war.
Big Week - Wikipedia
The first Mustang missions are flown Feb 11, 44 66th Fighter wing, 357th fighter group.
357th Fighter Group - Wikipedia
They didn't augment Jug squadrons, they replaced them. I find no evidence that he D model jugs had any impact on the air to air campaign.
I'm still hearing denial that range was the biggest problem of the jug.
More corrections later. and I have more to say about that 20 minute gap. I know how difficult rendezvous are but planning is suppose to take that into account. Why do you think their had to be a last minute hand off in the first place? Because the second group flew a slightly different route using different fuel settings just to cover the last 20 minutes. This is the exact reason they stopped trying to fly into Germany for 5 months. This mission was the deepest I find in the dailies until Feb, and it was not very far into Germany. This mission was right on the edge of what was possible for the big fuel sucking Thunderbolt and the foul up was taken very seriously, heads rolled, because it was known exactly what would happen if they didn't hand off properly. 5 planes in 20 minutes and that was just from my uncles squadron alone. This was a mission not just military but intended to send a message to Hitler's economic and political backers as well. You'd have to research I. G. Farben Industrie to find it. It was the worlds largest chemical company. Actually, the largest company of any kind in the world at the time. Wall Street made a lot of money off them and been helping them set up field offices in Canada before the war. Why Canada? Because big money Nazi apologists were getting enough heat already without being tied to them. The largest American investors were pro nazi even after the blitz. The company and it's family were the main financial supporters of the Nazi party all through Hitlers rise to power. It wasn't just a military target, it was a political one and an economic one aimed to hit the Nazi party in the pocketbook and it was supposed to send a clear message that similar considerations would be on the table in targeting. I started out just being curious about the target my uncle was trying to bomb and it led a complicated shameful story. I found the details in 1946 congressional hearing on American financial ties to the Nazi party. It was an idea that had come from the top and the brass all the way down to the group level knew it was of particular interest to the white house. What happened was an embarrassment.
A complex discussion, in 1940 the Merlin produced 1000 BHP, it couldn't possibly power any S/E fighter aircraft to Berlin and back. Just over two years later it could and three/four years later it did.Before the German declaration of war, USA probably can be excused for not embracing the escort fighter - after all they were trying to came out with inter-continetal bombers. After that, there were fast ways to create long range escort force for 1943, however the doctrine was again much slower than technology.
Japanese were doing LR escort before the advent of Zero or Oscar.
So why is Rare Bear, a stubby radial engine F8F Bearcat the fastest piston engine aircraft in the world?
A complex discussion, in 1940 the Merlin produced 1000 BHP, it couldn't possibly power any S/E fighter aircraft to Berlin and back. Just over two years later it could and three/four years later it did.
This may not be true (and if not I'm sure someone will correct the record), but I heard that the first American fighters flying escort over Berlin were P-47 Thunderbolts -
Merlin was producing 1300 BHP already in 1939.
As for the fighter that can do Kent to Berlin and back on budget (= one engine of 1000-1100 HP at altitude) while still being compettitive in the air, see Ki-61 and Zero. (link) Both used much draggier wings than Spitfire, and weaker engines.
BTW - in 1940, Ruhr can be attacked from France, 300 miles away. So can Berlin.
I'll stick to what I've said before - long range fighter was was much more restricted because of doctrine and politics/policy, than because of technology
No to the P-47D. At the Time, Mar3, 1944 the max combat radius of the P-47D series, with external tanks and 305 gallons internal fuel was Stuttgart/Brunswick radius. It was not until the P-47D-25 w/bubble canopy and 370 gal of internal fuel was combat operational in June 1944 that the P-47 could get to Leipzig/Magdeburg/Schweinfurt radius for target escort. By that time the P-51B/C and early D had populated 50% of 8th AF FG, with three more P-38 FG on-line for July conversion. and there was no need to change the role (Penetration/Withdrawal escort) for the P-47D.This may not be true (and if not I'm sure someone will correct the record), but I heard that the first American fighters flying escort over Berlin were P-47 Thunderbolts - and that the Mustangs got lost and did not make the party. Whether true or not the P-47's range was extended so that they could fly to Berlin. Yes, I realize the range was not as good as the 51 and the loiter time was probably shorter. But the points made by Shortround6 about the continual improvement in both the 47 and the 38 (let's not forget they were improving the B-17 and B-24 all the time as well) are well taken.
If the Mustang had not come along, the Thunderbolts and Lightnings would have been improved to the point where they could do the job (the P-47N escorting B-29's to Japan comes to mind). Maybe it would have delayed the inevitable, but for long. D-Day would have taken place. Everywhere I've read that the top speed tested for the P-47M was 473 mph, but I have seen lower numbers in this thread. Does anyone have sources for those lower numbers?
Sorry Tomo, I am on the other side for 1940/41
France is out of it, 860-910hp Hispano V-12s have enough trouble powering local interceptors even though they stuck big fuel tanks in the D.520.
Italy is out of it, the Fiat Radial doesn't make enough power and has too much drag.
The Japanese fighters are out of it also. Please note the conditions of cruise for everything except the Zeke 32, cruise is at 1500 ft, not 15,000ft. Unless it is a misprint. Just what are you escorting flying at 1500ft? Please look at the average speeds. speeds for max range are barely above minimum controlled airspeed. Any plane operating in enemy airspace at such a speed is little more than a target.
The radius figures are a bit more believable but speeds are unknown and suddenly the Zeke 52 fails on the Berlin mission.
Zeke 52s were also not avialable in 1940/41.
The Ki-61 is suspect due to the amount of fuel on board. the behind the pilot fuselage tank tended to disappear in later models did it not?
Was it a combat tank or a ferry tank? trying to fight with the rear tank full or near full may have presented problems.
Please note that the behind the seat tank on the P-36 was a ferry tank and the plane was not supposed to do combat maneuvers with the tank full or even part full. P-40s varied as to what they were supposed to do with the behind the seat tank according to model.
I would note that you could probably fly a P-40 from England to Berlin and back (engage in combat is another story) by using around a 75 gallon drop tank? maybe not
A P-40E was supposed to be able to fly 700 miles on 120 US gallons of fuel (after using an astonishing 28 gallons to warm up and take off with) Does anybody really believe a P-40C could have successfully been used as even a decent escort into western Germany in 1941 using 52 gallon drop tanks? It simply doesn't have the performance. and it was a pretty slick airplane.