Ideal Luftwaffe starting 1/1/1936

[davebender]

Consensus appears to support pushing DB603 and Jumo213 V12 engines to completion followed by mass production. I agree.

Every aircraft historically powered by BMW801 will perform as well or better powered by the V12s. So why spend resources developing and producing the big radial engine?

 

[wiking85]

Consensus appears to support pushing DB603 and Jumo213 V12 engines to completion followed by mass production. I agree.

Every aircraft historically powered by BMW801 will perform as well or better powered by the V12s. So why spend resources developing and producing the big radial engine?

The Fw190A. No other engine will give it that performance; the FW190C/D were no where near as maneuverable.

 

[tomo pauk]

Consensus appears to support pushing DB603 and Jumo213 V12 engines to completion followed by mass production. I agree.

What consensus? I'm against those two

Every aircraft historically powered by BMW801 will perform as well or better powered by the V12s. So why spend resources developing and producing the big radial engine?

The 'big radial engine' is, in absence of much improved or big V-12s, German best bet. Not just the engine (yes, it does need work to iron out the bugs, but so will need every other one; even the DB-601E, 605A, 603A, just to name these, were either not allowed to operate on full spec initialy, or were problematic in other way) gives plenty of power at all alztitudes, but German installation was almost perfect. Closely cowled due to fan, with thrust-producing exhaust stacks. Install the external intakes and you earn extra 10 mph higher up, as proved by tests.

The Fw190A. No other engine will give it that performance; the FW190C/D were no where near as maneuverable.

Partially agree.
If the Fw-190 gets 2-stage DB-601 or Jumo 211, then it will perform even better. The historical Fw-190 C D were as heavy as overweight Fw-190A-8 (~4300 kg in combat trim), there was no way those will be as maneuverable as early Antons, weighting 3800-3900 kg.

 

[wiking85]

Partially agree.
If the Fw-190 gets 2-stage DB-601 or Jumo 211, then it will perform even better. The historical Fw-190 C D were as heavy as overweight Fw-190A-8 (~4300 kg in combat trim), there was no way those will be as maneuverable as early Antons, weighting 3800-3900 kg.

They wouldn't be the FW190 though. Not sure how they would have performed with the different balance resulting from using an altered fuselage due to the different engine size and more limited power:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801#Specifications_.28BMW_801_C.29

Length: 2,006 mm (79 in)
Diameter: 1,290 mm (51 in)
Dry weight: 1,012 kg (2,226 lb)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_601

Length: 1,722 mm (68 in)
Dry weight: 590 kg (1,320 lb)

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/DB601_datasheets_A1.html
Diameter: 739mm

So the DB601 was shorter and much less wide, so the FW190 fuselage could be build much more narrowly. That changes the performance and makes it pretty much a different aircraft than the FW190.

 

[DonL]

The Fw190A. No other engine will give it that performance; the FW190C/D were no where near as maneuverable.

I also want the BMW 801 with the FW 190A as stop gap between 1941 till end 1942, till the introduction of the D-9 and afterwards as fighter bomber with a radial.
But I disagree to your claim, why the hack rated Eric Brown and other allied Pilots the D-9 as one of the best WWII fighter and as much state of the Art as the Mustang; P 47 and Spitfire?

 

[wiking85]

I also want the BMW 801 with the FW 190A as stop gap between 1941 till end 1942, till the introduction of the D-9 and afterwards as fighter bomber with a radial.
But I disagree to your claim, why the hack rated Eric Brown and other allied Pilots the D-9 as one of the best WWII fighter and as much state of the Art as the Mustang; P 47 and Spitfire?

Do you have a link for his quote on that? I've only ever seen him evaluation of the A-series. I think a DB601/5 equipped FW190 designed around that engine would be very good too, its just that we don't have any idea what it would perform like, even though apparently Tank did propose some versions of the FW190 according to Wikipedia, though supposedly he said it never was considered with anything but the radial.

 

[tomo pauk]

They wouldn't be the FW190 though. Not sure how they would have performed with the different balance resulting from using an altered fuselage due to the different engine size and more limited power:
...
So the DB601 was shorter and much less wide, so the FW190 fuselage could be build much more narrowly. That changes the performance and makes it pretty much a different aircraft than the FW190.

Don't get me wrong, but I'm not dazzled with any particular aircraft designation. Cat needs to catch mice, the color of the cat is irrelevant.
The Fw need to push with Fw-190-type aircraft by all means. But since we can't bet that the radial engine will be 100% ready for operations earlier than historical, we need an engine as a back-up. The only reason I look after the Jumo 211 is because they are offered as a power egg, so the subsequant radial engine installation can be straight forward, both because of piping and CoG issues. It also had less cooling drag than the DB-601 installation on Bf-109E. We won't build the 190 too narrow.
Performance is bound to suffer*, the 1300-1400 PS vs. 1000 PS is a huge difference. But we will have an aircraft that has good punch, far better roll, superior field of view, superior layout of U/C both when retracted and extended (= better rough field capability streamlining), more internal fuel - seems worth the effort.
Once the radial engine is ready, then, by all means, proceed with it.

*Instead of 640-660, maybe around 600 km/h?

 

[davebender]

DB603 had prototypes running during 1937. BMW801 was only a draft blueprint. I find it difficult to believe BMW801 would be production ready before DB603 if both programs receive similar funding. More likely the opposite is true. DB603 will be in mass production first and nobody will want to switch to BMW801 which was less reliable and less powerful when running on similar quality fuel.

 

[wiking85]

DB603 had prototypes running during 1937. BMW801 was only a draft blueprint. I find it difficult to believe BMW801 would be production ready before DB603 if both programs receive similar funding. More likely the opposite is true. DB603 will be in mass production first and nobody will want to switch to BMW801 which was less reliable and less powerful when running on similar quality fuel.

I think we can agree that a DB603 powered fighter designed from the ground up around the 603, such as an early Ta-152 optimized for low and high altitudes would be formidable, certainly as good as the Typhoon, but much sooner. With an early DB603 that option is viable perhaps instead of the FW190; so long as the engine if available, I don't see why it wouldn't be.

The Fiat G.56 certainly only needed the 603 to be possible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_G.55
Fiat G.56
The Fiat G.56 was basically a Fiat G.55 with a German Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine. Two prototypes were built, flight tests starting in March 1944.[10] On 30 March, Commander Valentino Cus reached speeds of 690/700 km/h (430/440 mph).[18] Official maximum speed was 685 km/h (426 mph) and the aircraft was armed with three 20 mm MG 151/20s, one firing through the propeller hub, the other two installed in the wings.[19] While performance was excellent, the aircraft proving superior to both the Bf 109K and Bf 109G and Fw 190A, outmanoeuvring [2] all types in testing, production was not allowed by the German authorities.[10]

Don't get me wrong, but I'm not dazzled with any particular aircraft designation. Cat needs to catch mice, the color of the cat is irrelevant.
The Fw need to push with Fw-190-type aircraft by all means. But since we can't bet that the radial engine will be 100% ready for operations earlier than historical, we need an engine as a back-up. The only reason I look after the Jumo 211 is because they are offered as a power egg, so the subsequant radial engine installation can be straight forward, both because of piping and CoG issues. It also had less cooling drag than the DB-601 installation on Bf-109E. We won't build the 190 too narrow.
Performance is bound to suffer*, the 1300-1400 PS vs. 1000 PS is a huge difference. But we will have an aircraft that has good punch, far better roll, superior field of view, superior layout of U/C both when retracted and extended (= better rough field capability streamlining), more internal fuel - seems worth the effort.
Once the radial engine is ready, then, by all means, proceed with it.

*Instead of 640-660, maybe around 600 km/h?

Do you have info about the Fw190 Jumo 211 power egg?

 

[tomo pauk]

Out of curiosity, what kind of RPM and manifold pressure would the DB-603 be capable for, if available earlier?

 

[wiking85]

Out of curiosity, what kind of RPM and manifold pressure would the DB-603 be capable for, if available earlier?

Look at the DB603A as an example of what that would be. It would probably be reasonably reliable (80 hours between overhaul) by 1941.

 

[DonL]

DB603 had prototypes running during 1937. BMW801 was only a draft blueprint. I find it difficult to believe BMW801 would be production ready before DB603 if both programs receive similar funding. More likely the opposite is true. DB603 will be in mass production first and nobody will want to switch to BMW801 which was less reliable and less powerful when running on similar quality fuel.

This claim is wrong! The DB 603 needs all the steps of the DB 601 till the DB 605 to have a performance of 1600-1750PS. It is an ilusion to think you can put the DB 603 in mass production before 1942

Also if you got the fusion of BMW and Bramo earlier (1936) as I said in my earlier post, there is a good chance to have the BMW 801 at mass production 1940. Radials are simplier and didn't need pressurised water cooling, also the BMW 139 was much further developed then a DB 603. I thought this thread should be realistic and not some mythical myths.

Also to think you could develop a Ta 152 fast without the development of the FW 190-D9 is simply a myth. Anybody must develop the ring cooling for example and the new fulsage and so on.....
The Ta 152 was developed from the FW 190 C and D-9)

 

[tomo pauk]

Look at the DB603A as an example of what that would be. It would probably be reasonably reliable (80 hours between overhaul) by 1941.

The DB-603A was allowed for 2700 rpm and 1.40 ata. And was not reliable until late 1943 on those settngs. Though smaller (ie. in theory more amenable for bigger RPM), the DB-601E was allowed only for 2500 rpm in late 1941, and 1.30 ata.
Sorry, I don't buy that DB-603 would be allowed for more stress (ie. rpm + ata) than the DB-601E in 1941, or ever.

 

[wiking85]

The DB-603A was allowed for 2700 rpm and 1.40 ata. And was not reliable until late 1943 on those settngs. Though smaller (ie. in theory more amenable for bigger RPM), the DB-601E was allowed only for 2500 rpm in late 1941, and 1.30 ata.

Considering it was only developed for about 12 months before being cancelled in 1937, then did nothing until it started preparing fora mid-1939 racing stunt that never happened, it got funding restored in 1940 at a limited level, as the DB604 was given even greater priority. That wallowed as the 603 showed more promise and in 1941 it started to really enter into production planning. By 1942 it was in service after 1 initial year of development, followed by minor work in 1939 and then serious work from 1940-41. Without the delay in development it would continue through 1937, 38, 39, and 40 before entering production at 1750PS in 1941 at 1943 levels of reliability. Compared to the historical development from June 1936-June 1937, then 1939-1941 before entering production in 1942 is a roughly comparable time frame, though historically 1939 was at best a very limited partial development year. That is why it wasn't reliable until 1943. Had 1939 been a fully funded development year, it would have been reliable by late 1942, rather than a year later. The work done on the DB601 wasn't really that useful for the 603, due to the differing cooling issues and need to build the 603 stronger due to high output. Only uninterrupted funding and time from mid-1936 onward was needed to get it ready by mid-1941 for relatively reliable service.

Sorry, I don't buy that DB-603 would be allowed for more stress (ie. rpm + ata) than the DB-601E in 1941, or ever.

Did I claim that it would? In fact it doesn't need to due to large displacement per cylinder.

 

[wiking85]

This claim is wrong! The DB 603 needs all the steps of the DB 601 till the DB 605 to have a performance of 1600-1750PS. It is an ilusion to think you can put the DB 603 in mass production before 1942

Not really, as in 1940 the DB603 was offering 1750PS, but wasn't yet reliable due to its low level of development. Also the 603 had a lot of different cooling and engineering issues due to its larger displacement per cylinder and overall larger size. With full scale support from 1936-1941, it should be ready to go at 1750PS by June 1941 considering that would be exactly 5 years of development. Historically it took about that long to make the 603 reasonably reliable.

Also if you got the fusion of BMW and Bramo earlier (1936) as I said in my earlier post, there is a good chance to have the BMW 801 at mass production 1940. Radials are simplier and didn't need pressurised water cooling, also the BMW 139 was much further developed then a DB 603. I thought this thread should be realistic and not some mythical myths.

I don't disagree about the radials. However the only reason it was further ahead of the DB603 historically is due to the cancellation of funding and development from 1937-1939.

Also to think you could develop a Ta 152 fast without the development of the FW 190-D9 is simply a myth. Anybody must develop the ring cooling for example and the new fulsage and so on.....
The Ta 152 was developed from the FW 190 C and D-9)

Why can't developing an aircraft from the beginning around the DB603 or Jumo 213 rather than adapting an existing aircraft have resulted in something better than the FW190C/D by 1942 if the engine is available by 1940-41. I'm not suggesting that such an aircraft would have the high altitude performance of the Ta-152H, but the lower altitude performance of the Ta-152C is realistic (minus boost systems).

 

[tomo pauk]

Wiking85 said:

Did I claim that it would?

Indirectly, you did claim it would.
The setting with 2700 rpm and 1.40 ata (= DB-603A in late 1942) represents far greater stress than 2500 rpm and 1.30 ata (= DB-601E in late 1941). The stress due to the rpm goes up with square (ie. non linear increase) - increase the rpm by 10%, the stress is increased by 21%.
If your DB-603 cannot provide greater rpm and boost, then it does not give the power good enough to reliably 'beat' the BMW-801. So one ends up with a heavier powerplant than it was the 801, and the end result is not a gain in performance maneuverability, but loss.

Now I know that DB-603 was hampered by on/off funding support. What is often overlooked is how much the knowledge gained from development of the DB-601 series contributed in development of DB-603.

 

[wiking85]

Now I know that DB-603 was hampered by on/off funding support. What is often overlooked is how much the knowledge gained from development of the DB-601 series contributed in development of DB-603.

How much did? I haven't found any info about that, if you have some I would appreciate it.

 

[tomo pauk]

I don't know for certain. What I do know is that the work on in-house engines does not happen with one part of engine development department firmly walled away from another.
We can take a look at superchargers installed in DB engines prior 1943, to see the techincal advance: the supercharger for the 1st DB-601As have had 12-blade impeller. Changed to 13-blade one in later 601As. The DB-601E received a 16-blade impeller. The DB-605A received a somewhat bigger supercharger. I don't have many informantions about the SC of the DB-600, nor I do have any informations about the change of impeller's blade profile.
Other changes, from 601A to 601E included: much increased valve overlap, port polish, increased ignition advance, cams in 'racing trim', additional air passage for better running on low settings etc. link (corrections additions welcome)
Assuming that the DB-603 have had all of these things improvements place already in 1940/41 is not something I'd believe.

 

[DonL]

The BMW 132 was on a continuous development also with fuel injection from 1934 till end of production.
To claim it was not or the BMW 801 influenced this development in a wrong way is totaly wrong. The development of the BMW 132 was the base of the 801.

The advertisement of a big radial engine was 1935 and totaly rational, because the BMW engineeres were specialist of radial engines and not liquid cooled engines since 1929, also the engineers from Bramo. Both companies were the most important engine companies from 1932-1938 of Germany and it was more then right and rational to integrate them in the development of high performance military engines.

A failure was the long wait of the fusion of both companies. Bramo was owned since 1935 from the RLM/Germany but no fusion with BMW till 1938 and no new engine factory till 1938/39. This was a big mistake. Fusion both companies at 1936 and funding a new engine factory at 1936/37 just as Junkers and Daimler Benz.
One of my personal important points to built a LW from 1936 onwards.

An other realy important point at 1936 to fund in agreement with BMW, Junkers and Daimler Benz, component supplier of modern all around production tools for development and to enlarge production of this tools.

1936:

- intensivation of the development of the MG 131 and MG 151

1937:

- No Bomber B advertisement and no advertisement for a 2000 PS engine
- funding of the DB 603
- advertisement of a new 1600 PS engine till 1941
- advertisement of the Bomber A with four gondulas (He 177 is favorite after the shown plans and wood model)
- order to FW to rebuilt the FW 187 as two seat long range and bad weather fighter.
- order to FW starting to plan and to develop a new fighter for the new big radial engine of BMW/Bramo

1938:

- dividing the development of the Ju 88, continuing the fast Bomber as planed and new development of dive capacity till 55 degree
- funding of the offered Do 217 to develop
- comparation flight between the Me 110 and the FW 187
- canceling of the Me 110 to mass produce and developing stop of the Me 210
- order to put the FW 187 (two seater) in mass production
- mass production of the Ju 88 as fast level bomber

- In production Bf 109, FW 187 (beginning), Ju 87, Do 17, He 111, Ju 88 (beginning), Ju 52 and FW 200

1939:

- mass production of the Ju 88 with dive capacity
- order of the FW 190 A0
- order to enlarge the pilot training program
- order to enlarge Genshagen factory
- order to built engine factory at Wien (Ostmark) for DB 603 tooling
- oder of more prototypes of the Do 217 planed engine DB 603
- order of more prototypes of the He 177 planed engine DB 603
- order to stop mass production of the Do 17


- In production Bf 109, FW 187, Ju 87, Do 17 (end), He 111, Ju 88, Ju 52, FW 200 and FW 189

1940:

- starting mass production of the FW 190 A
- order to enlarge the production of the Do 215 Kautz III (DB 601) as stop gap night fighter till the start of the mass production of the Do 217
- order to develop the FW 190 further for the new big inline engines DB 603 and Jumo 213
- order to develop out of the fast Bomber Ju 88 a fast night fighter Ju 88 (jumo 211/213)
- advertisement of a new transport aircraft with Jumo 211 engines

- In production Bf 109, FW 190A (beginning), FW 187, Ju 87, Do 215 night fighter, He 111, Ju 88, Ju 52, FW 200 and FW 189

1941:

- order to develop out of the FW 190 A a fighter bomber
- oder of the first batch of the new inline engines DB 603 and Jumo 213 (Prototypes and pre production)
- order of FW 190 C/D prototypes for Jumo 213/Db 603
- order of the Ju 252 prototypes
- order of the FW 190 F/G prototypes fighter bomber (BMW 801)
- order of a smal preproduction series He 177 A with four Db 603
- order of a smal preproduction series Do 217 with two DB 603
- order of smal preproduction series of the Ju 88 nightfighter Jumo 213
- order to start mass production of the Ju 88 night fighter with Jumo 211
- order to stopp mass production of the He 111 and retooling to the He 177
- order to stop mass production of the Do 215 and retooling to the Do 217

- In production Bf 109, FW 190 A, FW 187, Ju 87, Do 215 night fighter (end), He 111 (end), Ju 88, Ju 52, FW 200 and FW 189

1942:

- order to stop production of the FW 200
- order to mass produce DB 605 (Genshagen)
- order to mass produce DB 603 (Ostmark)
- oder to start mass production of Jumo 213 (90 % of the production capacity)
- order to start mass production of the Do 217
- order to start mass production of the He 177
- order to start mass production of the Ju 88 at all versions with the Jumo 213
- order to stop mass production of the FW 190 A
- order to start mass production of the FW 190 F/G fighter bomber BMW 801
- order to start mass production of the Fw 190 D-9 Jumo 213
- order to start production of the Ju 252 Jumo 211
- order to start to develop the FW 190 D-9 further to a high altitude fighter Ta 152

- In production Bf 109, FW 190 A (end) FW 190 F/G (beginning), FW 190 D-9 (beginning), FW 187, Ju 87, Do 217 (beginning), He 177 (beginning), Ju 88, Ju 52, FW 200 (end) and FW 189

1943:

In production: Bf 109 "G" DB 605 (hopefully better through concentration of Messerschmitt as the original), FW 190 D-9 (Jumo 213), FW 187 (DB 605), FW 190 F/G (BMW 801), Ju 88 (70% of the production night fighter Jumo 213, 30 % naval/nornal strike aircrafts Jumo 213), Ju 87 (reduced production Jumo 211), Do 217 (DB 603), He 177 (DB 603), Ju 252 (Jumo 211), Ju 52 and FW 189

 

[davebender]

DB603 only needs to produce 1,600hp with 25 hour reliability to beat 1941 version of BMW801. That's not a terribly high performance bar.