If the RAF had been defeated in the Battle of Britain

Shortround6 · Aug 7, 2013

Dogwalker said:
Yeah. We are losing sight that, without the aerial cover, ships, in WWII, were practically only big and slow targets.

True, to some extent, in day light in 1940. Few air attacks were successful in sinking 100% of the ships in a task force/convoy.

Dogwalker said:
An invasion fleet had to do only few tenths of km to pass the Channel and gain a bridgehead under LW aerial cover, while the RN, having heard the news that the invasion fleet is moving, had to steam for several hundreds of km by night, pass over minefields, the Kriegsmarine itself, and see if the invasion force had been so kind to wait for her. Then, having won the battle, have still to leave the scenario.

I think you mean tens of Km and not tenths. Some body has posted the planned German invasion routes, the ports at the closest distance across the channel cannot accommodate the shipping required so the routes are some what longer. And the British coast closest to France is a lousy landing site, the Cliffs of Dover.

Even assuming the invasion fleet can make 6kph the defenders can do an easy 36-42kph.

The Kriegsmarine is little more than a speed bump, see previous post for ships. And most of those are in Germany and have to come through the North Sea and English Channel to support the Invasion. Through British mine fields and submarines.

Dogwalker said:
Cannons do not defeat mines.

Actually they do. Coastal Mine fields that are not covered by guns have only temporary effect as they can be located and swept. The Dutch built gun boats to extend the reach of their shore batteries to cover their mine fields. Shallow water would keep the big ships away for them. If your ships (guns) can silence the enemy guns (ships) then your minesweepers can work. It is harder but you can sweep at night and in weather that may keep aircraft grounded.

stona · Aug 7, 2013

As above.

Also no one has yet explained how the Germans are going to get ashore. They had zero landing craft. The soldiers were supposed to row ashore in rubber rafts. Some barges, their bottoms filled with concrete, were to beach and land heavy equipment, but without the benefit of ramps, a kind of ramp was to be built using railway track amongst other things.

Presumably the British would sportingly hold their fire while all this was going on.

The plan called for 6 Divisions to land in Kent via Folkestone and Ramsgate (presumably captured intact) 4 Divisions via Brighton (**** beach!) and the Isle of Wight and then another 3 Divisions were to land in Dorset at Lyme Bay.
Good luck with that.

It's all listed in this volume.

At least the German soldiers would have been given some nice post cards of things like Brighton Pier to keep as souvenirs.....if they hadn't drowned.

Neither did the Germans have anything like the many thousands of airborne forces, gliders etc to secure the inland side of a bridgehead. Their airborne forces in 1940 were very good, but very small. They were used as sort of bogeymen in Britain as the government ramped up invasion fever.

Compare this sort of operation with the one that the allies used four years later. The whole thing is ridiculous and would have ended in disaster, something the Germans themselves were well aware of.

Cheers

Steve

Dogwalker · Aug 7, 2013

Shortround6 said:
Germans have available in late summer/early fall of 1940.

To lay minefields needs far less.

Minefields layed by Germans 1939-45

Some were pretty close to British shores, and Germans did not had the air superiority.

Shortround6 said:
The Luftwaffe will have to do the bulk of the work but since the British can afford to loose 3-4 ships of every German one (or more if it stops the invasion) that is a tall order, especially considering the the Luftwaffe not only can't operate at night against ships effectively but there will be days when the weather prohibits flying but ships can still operate.

And why on earth the Invasion force had to move when the LW can't operate?

None to say we are reasoning as the British has perfect knowledge of German intentions. Obviously, in real world Germans can even do diversive operations to make the RN expose itself to mines and air attack to stop a feint.

Shortround6 · Aug 7, 2013

Here is one map, there are others of greater detail;

You can't go by shortest distance, you need port capacity both to embark and to land ashore.

Dogwalker · Aug 7, 2013

Shortround6 said:
True, to some extent, in day light in 1940. Few air attacks were successful in sinking 100% of the ships in a task force/convoy.

So you think the invasion could be stopped by 1 or 2% of the Home Fleet?

Shortround6 said:
Even assuming the invasion fleet can make 6kph

So, starting at night (the RN had first to know that the invasion fleet started, then to start itself from outside the LW air cover), to ashore at dawn without a single enemy ship still on sight.

Shortround6 said:
Coastal Mine fields that are not covered by guns have only temporary effect

And all the Germans needed was a temporay effect.

Dogwalker · Aug 7, 2013

Shortround6 said:
You can't go by shortest distance

Several of the routes are very close to the shortest distance, that, remember, is of only 35 km.

Kryten · Aug 7, 2013

Dogwalker said:
To lay minefields needs far less.

Minefields layed by Germans 1939-45

Some were pretty close to British shores, and Germans did not had the air superiority.

And why on earth the Invasion force had to move when the LW can't operate?

None to say we are reasoning as the British has perfect knowledge of German intentions. Obviously, in real world Germans can even do diversive operations to make the RN expose itself to mines and air attack to stop a feint.

not wanting to point out the blindingly obvious, but the German invasion fleet will be just as vulnerable to mines as the RN, Coastal Command laid thousands of mines by night , do you really think the invasion fleet is going to be sailing in clear water?

Kryten · Aug 7, 2013

Shortround6 said:
Here is one map, there are others of greater detail;

View attachment 239955

You can't go by shortest distance, you need port capacity both to embark and to land ashore.

The currents in the straights of dover would make towing barges a nightmare!

stona · Aug 7, 2013

The towed barges would be lucky to make 3 knots. They also need something approaching "Dunkirk weather", a flat calm. They were designed to butt up the Rhine and Danube, as they do today, not make sea crossings.
The various fleets would also require substantial time to assemble before setting off across the channel. They don't simply weigh anchor and set off one by one.
Don't under estimate the time that the British would have to react.
Cheers
Steve

stona · Aug 7, 2013

Kryten said:
The currents in the straights of dover would make towing barges a nightmare!

Particularly flat bottomed river barges.

Cheers

Steve

Dogwalker · Aug 7, 2013

stona said:
Compare this sort of operation with the one that the allies used four years later.

And what was the opposition in the two cases? In June 1940 the British Army had 22 infantry divisions and one armoured division. The infantry divisions were, on average, at half strength, had only one-sixth of their normal artillery and were almost totally lacking in transport (Owen).

Dogwalker · Aug 7, 2013

Kryten said:
not wanting to point out the blindingly obvious, but the German invasion fleet will be just as vulnerable to mines as the RN, Coastal Command laid thousands of mines by night , do you really think the invasion fleet is going to be sailing in clear water?

Not wanting to point out the blindingly obvious, but British minelayers, apart for the smallest, had to go the same route the RN had to and with the same risks. The same for minesweepers. Being able to operate by day and with aerial cover, the minefields the Germans could lay are far bigger and more dense, and the distance the British had to cover in the minefields, longer.

stona · Aug 7, 2013

Dogwalker said:
And what was the opposition in the two cases? In June 1940 the British Army had 22 infantry divisions and one armoured division. The infantry divisions were, on average, at half strength, had only one-sixth of their normal artillery and were almost totally lacking in transport (Owen).

They still have to run the gamut of the Royal Navy and get ashore. One man and a machine gun caused carnage on Omaha beach.

Cheers

Steve

Kryten · Aug 7, 2013

Dogwalker said:
Not wanting to point out the blindingly obvious, but British minelayers, apart for the smallest, had to go the same route the RN had to and with the same risks. The same for minesweepers. Being able to operate by day and with aerial cover, the minefields the Germans could lay are far bigger and more dense, and the distance the British had to cover in the minefields, longer.

Coastal command was part of the RAF, they laid mines at night for years!

Milosh · Aug 7, 2013

There was a continuing battle by both sides in the Straights of Dover, both laying and sweeping for mines.

Dogwalker, how many mines did the Germans have?

Shortround6 · Aug 7, 2013

Dogwalker said:
Minefields layed by Germans 1939-45

Some were pretty close to British shores, and Germans did not had the air superiority.

The map shows areas mines were dropped/laid in. It does not show density (mines per square km) or duration ( were mines swept/removed before war ended).

British were sweeping port entrances on regular basis so the fields had to be replenished. Mine warfare is an ongoing thing. you cannot lay a mine field in enemy waters and then ignore it for weeks/months and expect it to still be effective. They will be working to remove it.

Dogwalker said:
And why on earth the Invasion force had to move when the LW can't operate?

Well, I guess it doesn't have to, if you can figure out how to get the parts of the invasion fleet from Le Harve to Brighton ( 150 KM?, 25 hours at 6kph, if slower ???) unload and back to Le Harve without the weather changing or night falling for 3-4 days.

130km from Knokke-Heist to Ramsgate. What is the tidal current?

And to keep the army supplied you have to keep running ships/barges across the channel until the British surrender. Each division needs 100-300 tons per day, stopping supply runs for 2-4 days because of bad weather and the Luftwaffe not flying isn't a real good option.

Dogwalker said:
None to say we are reasoning as the British has perfect knowledge of German intentions. Obviously, in real world Germans can even do diversive operations to make the RN expose itself to mines and air attack to stop a feint.

If the Luftwaffe has to mine the western end of the Channel, because the German navy can't reach it, except for a few subs, what isn't the Luftwaffe doing?

Laying a mine field across the channel is rather different than laying mines across several miles of port entrance.

Shortround6 · Aug 7, 2013

Dogwalker said:
Not wanting to point out the blindingly obvious, but British minelayers, apart for the smallest, had to go the same route the RN had to and with the same risks. The same for minesweepers. Being able to operate by day and with aerial cover, the minefields the Germans could lay are far bigger and more dense, and the distance the British had to cover in the minefields, longer.

Lay using what?

What German ships are in France/Belgium/Holland in late summer/fall of 1940?

what captured ships are available?

Converted Destroyers could hold about 60 mines.

prem895 · Aug 7, 2013

I would be sporting a Hitler mustache

pattle · Aug 7, 2013

During the invasion of Crete the Germans had absolute control of the air but still didn't dare send a seaborne invasion fleet by day because of the threat from the Royal Navy and allied shore batteries, and when they tried sending a fleet by night the Royal Navy sank it.

wiking85 · Aug 7, 2013

What sort of invasion fleet would have been available in 1941?
I know the Siebel ferries were available in number and the Marinefährprähme started to be delivered in April 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinefährprahm
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinefährprahm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebel_ferry

Edit:
What if the Bismarck was used for the invasion instead of sorteeing in 1941?

If the RAF had been defeated in the Battle of Britain

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