IJN attacks vs defended islands: Ceylon compared to Midway

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 18, 2014

VBF-13 said:
OK.

If you weren't exactly sure what I was looking for or where to might be embedded in the text, the list of Hiryu aircraft survivors would most likely be a bit difficult to locate. Also, when I initially picked up Lord, I looked for the acknowledgements section at its usual position near the front. It wasn't there. I looked further and noticed the contributors' list at the back and, as you had indicated, there was no mention of Fuchida and Okumiya. I happened to open the book again, quite by accident, to the acknowledgements page and realized it had been placed at the back. Examining this revealed the names of the two missing sources. I looked at the acknowledgement section again today and of course found the significant reference to S.R. Morison on page 304 allowing me to speak once again.

What makes this particular reference most interesting is the fact that he says he disagreed with Morison on some issues: "On some points my own conclusions stray from Admiral Morison's findings." Without knowing the details of his disagreement, this demonstrates that Lord was no simple student of, or reporter for secondary sources. He had a mind of his own and could critically analyze the facts he was given. I think you are certainly justified in holding him in high regard as do I.

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 18, 2014

RCAFson said:
I know the USAAF didn't go out of it's way to advertise it's use of Spitfires in the ETO, so maybe the USN hushed up it's use of the HSH...but I really doubt it.

That's another possibility. But it does seem unlikely. Yet worth trying to track down if there is even a grain of truth to it.

Just found this reference with a cryptic remark:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/people/odendhal_charles_j_jr.pdf

"During 1939-1941, the English had extra fighters, but a shortage of trained pilots. However, American pilots were not officially able to assist until after American entered the war in December 1941.

His then commanding officer, Captain Don Wilcox, said they would go to a local airfield in full pilot "kit" and
were welcomed to take any fighter that was ready to fly. These were usually Hawker Hurricanes, with which
they were familiar by way of limited training. They would follow after the assigned fighters and shoot down
German bombers which were separated from formations and trying to make it back to France."

VBF-13 · Nov 21, 2014

oldcrowcv63 said:
If you weren't exactly sure what I was looking for or where to might be embedded in the text, the list of Hiryu aircraft survivors would most likely be a bit difficult to locate. Also, when I initially picked up Lord, I looked for the acknowledgements section at its usual position near the front. It wasn't there. I looked further and noticed the contributors' list at the back and, as you had indicated, there was no mention of Fuchida and Okumiya. I happened to open the book again, quite by accident, to the acknowledgements page and realized it had been placed at the back. Examining this revealed the names of the two missing sources. I looked at the acknowledgement section again today and of course found the significant reference to S.R. Morison on page 304 allowing me to speak once again.

What makes this particular reference most interesting is the fact that he says he disagreed with Morison on some issues: "On some points my own conclusions stray from Admiral Morison's findings." Without knowing the details of his disagreement, this demonstrates that Lord was no simple student of, or reporter for secondary sources. He had a mind of his own and could critically analyze the facts he was given. I think you are certainly justified in holding him in high regard as do I.

Well that in itself is at least some recommendation.

Two points in relationship to this acknowledgment. One, Morison's historical account was what spurred Lord on to write the book. Lord said as much on that page. Why write a book if Lord thought Morison's historical account was complete? Two, any author on the subject not having read Morison's historical account had to have been negligent. It would be like an author writing on the history of the Peloponnesian War, or the history of Rome, and ignoring the historical accounts, respectively, of Thucydides and Livy.

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 22, 2014

VBF-13 said:
Well that in itself is at least some recommendation.

Two points in relationship to this acknowledgment. One, Morison's historical account was what spurred Lord on to write the book. Lord said as much on that page. Why write a book if Lord thought Morison's historical account was complete? Two, any author on the subject not having read Morison's historical account had to have been negligent. It would be like an author writing on the history of the Peloponnesian War, or the history of Rome, and ignoring the historical accounts, respectively, of Thucydides and Livy.

Good points. Completely agree with you on both counts. What puzzles me most about all the pre-Lundstrom histories (and even his account) is how everyone appears to have missed (ignored?) the IJN CAP situation after the USN VB attack. Even now, this is not typically presented as important or relevant to understanding what transpired during the morning battle.

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 22, 2014

RCAFson said:
Somerville noted that he only had 1 HSH II along with 11 HSH IIs on strength in Indomitable in April 1942.

typo?

RCAFson said:
A HSH 1B, even with a Merlin III at 12lb boost, still had a much superior (~6900lb and 1310hp)power to weight ratio over the F4F-3 (7550lb and 1200hp) or -4 (7970lb and 1200hp).

If I can believe wikipedia (???):

it looks like the 12 lb boost upgrade wasn't implemented until August 1942 for Pedestal by which time, the F4F-3 was essentially removed from service.

for the F4F-3:

Specific Power: 0.159 hp/lb.

Wing loading: 29.05 lbs/ft2

For the F4F-4:

Specific Power: 0.151 hp/lb

Wing loading: 30.65 lbs/ft2

For the Sea Hurricane I, (hard to get specific numbers. Any sources would be appreciated)

weight loaded ~6,700 lbs???., RR Merlin III 1030 hp?

Specific Power: 0.154 hp/lb.

Wing Loading: 26.07 lbs/ft2

This suggests to me the rough parity of the F4F-3 to the Sea Hurricane Mk I-Ic:

For the Sea Hurricane IIC, I get:

Specific Power: 0.179 hp/lb at 7,300 lbs normal load and 1,310 hp from your horse power numbers:

Wing Loading: 26.07 lbs/ft2

and from Brown's "Wings...:

Specific Power: 0.2 hp/lb at 7,300 lb normal load and 1,460 hp.

Wing Loading: 28.40 lbs/ft2

I wish I had better numbers for the various Hurricane marks. But whatever the numbers turn out to be, it seems obvious to me that the Sea Hurricane II was the hottest allied carrier based fighter of 1942.

tomo pauk · Nov 22, 2014

The Merlin III was allowed for +12 lbs boost on 100 oct fuel before 1940. Specifically for the needs of S.H. the boost of +14 lbs was allowed, making IIRC 1440 HP at some 6-7000 ft. The table confirmig this can be found at Williams' site.

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 22, 2014

tomo pauk said:
The Merlin III was allowed for +12 lbs boost on 100 oct fuel before 1940. Specifically for the needs of S.H. the boost of +14 lbs was allowed, making IIRC 1440 HP at some 6-7000 ft. The table confirmig this can be found at Williams' site.

Tomo,

The text I think you are referring to is at: Hurricane Mk I Combat Report and refers to the Land- based Hurricane operations.

Aside from that, I confused the numbers from the Pedestal comment with those in RCAFson's post. However, the duration of the 12 boost is limited in time and only effective below 10,000' according to:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ap1590b.jpg

I don't know whether the Sea Hurricane operations would have been more limited but if so, it may be something peculiar to the naval modification and extended remotely based operational environment (perhaps to minimize engine changes from a limited supply?). I don't think I have a good handle on the weight of the Sea Hurricane I either. In general, I find the information and lack of specificity regarding variants of the Sea Hurricane I to be a bit frustrating.

tomo pauk · Nov 22, 2014

oldcrowcv63 said:
Tomo,

The text I think you are referring to is at: Hurricane Mk I Combat Report and refers to the Land- based Hurricane operations.

Here is the table I was speaking about: picture
The +14 lbs boost for Sea Hurricane only.

Aside from that, I confused the numbers from the Pedestal comment with those in RCAFson's post. However, the duration of the 12 boost is limited in time and only effective below 10,000' according to:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ap1590b.jpg

The higher the boost is intended to use, the lower the altitude it is, for same engine type. The chart showing the Merlin III power vs. altitude: picture

I don't know whether the Sea Hurricane operations would have been more limited but if so, it may be something peculiar to the naval modification and extended remotely based operational environment (perhaps to minimize engine changes from a limited supply?). I don't think I have a good handle on the weight of the Sea Hurricane I either. In general, I find the information and lack of specificity regarding variants of the Sea Hurricane I to be a bit frustrating.

The Fulmar Mk.I's Merlin (Mk.VIII) was also rated for over-boosting when using 100 oct fuel.

RCAFson · Nov 22, 2014

oldcrowcv63 said:
typo?

If I can believe wikipedia (???):

it looks like the 12 lb boost upgrade wasn't implemented until August 1942 for Pedestal by which time, the F4F-3 was essentially removed from service.

for the F4F-3:

Specific Power: 0.159 hp/lb.

Wing loading: 29.05 lbs/ft2

For the F4F-4:

Specific Power: 0.151 hp/lb

Wing loading: 30.65 lbs/ft2

For the Sea Hurricane I, (hard to get specific numbers. Any sources would be appreciated)

weight loaded ~6,700 lbs???., RR Merlin III 1030 hp?

Specific Power: 0.154 hp/lb.

Wing Loading: 26.07 lbs/ft2

This suggests to me the rough parity of the F4F-3 to the Sea Hurricane Mk I-Ic:

For the Sea Hurricane IIC, I get:

Specific Power: 0.179 hp/lb at 7,300 lbs normal load and 1,310 hp from your horse power numbers:

Wing Loading: 26.07 lbs/ft2

and from Brown's "Wings...:

Specific Power: 0.2 hp/lb at 7,300 lb normal load and 1,460 hp.

Wing Loading: 28.40 lbs/ft2

I wish I had better numbers for the various Hurricane marks. But whatever the numbers turn out to be, it seems obvious to me that the Sea Hurricane II was the hottest allied carrier based fighter of 1942.

Sorry, Somerville noted that he only had 1 HSH II and and 11 HSH I fighters.

Thanks to Greyman we have the basic specs for the HSH Ib:

Max weight = 7015lb
Vmax = 315mph at 7500 (Merlin III 1440hp at 16lb boost).
Vmax = 308 mpg at 18000ft (Merlin III 1010hp at 6.25lb boost)
Climb = 2200fpm max and 10min to 20k ft. ( continuous rating) Combat climb = ~3500fpm and ~6.5min to 20k ft. (my estimates)

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 22, 2014

tomo pauk said:
Here is the table I was speaking about: picture
The +14 lbs boost for Sea Hurricane only.

you meant +16 lb boost. no?

tomo pauk · Nov 22, 2014

Oops, +16 boost it is

slaterat · Nov 23, 2014

I wouldn't say the Hurricane in any variant produced is superior to a Zero. Their relative performance in 1942 is fairly close. The advantage of the Zero is low speed maneuverability, the Hurricane has the same advantages that an F4F would have, high speed maneuverability, armour and self sealing tanks. The advantage would go to the one that had better trained pilots,larger numbers and tactical advantages in altitude and surprise. In 1942 that was usually the Japanese.

slaterat · Nov 23, 2014

Francis K Masons book "The Hawker Hurricane", is a pretty good one stop source for the performance and development of different Hurricanes. Although he doesn't state the power ratings of the engines used to produce the performance numbers, he does use figures from official PRO documents.

Greyman · Nov 23, 2014

I find many of the performance figures in that book to be somewhat ... off. I wouldn't recommend using them.

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 23, 2014

tomo pauk said:
Oops, +16 boost it is

Clearly, my own condition is contagious. sorry 'bout that.

thedab · Nov 26, 2014

by the way,does anyone know the rate of roll for the Hurricane?

RCAFson · Nov 26, 2014

thedab said:
by the way,does anyone know the rate of roll for the Hurricane?

NACA compared the Hurricane IIa and Spitfire V and concluded that their roll rates were almost identical (NACA paper dated 16 Nov 1942), so we can use the normal wing Spitfire rates here as almost completely indicative of the Hurricane roll rates:

Neil Stirling · Nov 26, 2014

Sea Hurricane

Neil.

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 26, 2014

Neil Stirling said:
Sea Hurricane

Neil.

8 x .303 cal guns Merlin III engine: Sea Hurricane IB, yes?

oldcrowcv63 · Nov 26, 2014

duplicate post

IJN attacks vs defended islands: Ceylon compared to Midway

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