MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Kerosine burners? Don't you mean suck and blow tin cans?
Improve That Design: How Aircraft Could Have Been Made Better
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
AAF guys during WWII called the the German jets "blow jobs".
Just putting this out there for what it's worth...
Just putting this out there for what it's worth...
Well, you could put it that way, I suppose. These guys never made it to the BAC 1-11 with its "tin can" Speys. They were still on the "whistlepig" FH227s with their screaming RR Darts and pining for their beloved R2800s when the airline collapsed around them and "Agony Airways" took over. Allegheny tried to avoid a culture clash by offering ex Mohawk employees jobs, but dispersing them to the far reaches of their system and filling all the central NY jobs with their own transplants and new hires. Presented with far away jobs and no relocation allowance, many Utica - Syracuse Mohawk employees quit and left the industry, only to come back a decade later when Utica spawned yet another wildfire growth airline, Empire, which became part of Piedmont, then USAir, and finally, American. One of my former students started on Navajos with Valley Air Service, which became Empire, and retired last year from American, after being typed in every jet that series of airlines flew. His license had two pages to list all his ratings.
PS: As a former RR Dart "victim" myself, I can sympathize with their distaste for the Whistlepig. It certainly was a different sort of beast.
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MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
Some actually hung the tank engines on airplanes. A friend of mime found out that a outfit in Southeast Florida had an R-670 available at an attractive price. He drove down in his pickup and bought it. On the way at home, he started thinking and realized that the engine's crankshaft looked suspiciously short. He turned around, went back, and confirmed it was a tank engine, got his money back.
And maybe 23 years ago there was an ad in the The Ercoupe Club newsletter. Someone had a RR Griffon for sale for about $1700. A friend of mine, an accomplished Army aviator, said he wish he had known since he would have bought it, to use as a coffee table in his house, if nothing else.
There was a guy in Amish PA who bought a wharehouse full of the tank version and put aircraft splined shafts and surplus aircraft cylinders on and advertised in Trade-a-Plane and Sport Aviation (EAA) "Every biplane deserves a radial!". An acquaintance of mine wanted to re-engine his PT23 and got all excited until he discovered those PA engines could only be used in Experimental Category aircraft.
The R-670 tank engines had two different type pistons, one of which could be used on aircraft. Stoltzfus would x-ray one cylinder on each engine to determine which piston was installed as he could sell an engine with aircraft pistons for more money. A Curtiss-Wright employee told me that they couldn't just scrap their sodium filled exhaust valves since the sodium would burn/explode when dumped in a smelter. They were mounting them on plaques noting that they were from the engines used on B-17 bombers and giving them away to customers. When they lost their last military customer for engine parts, they scrapped a warehouse full of engine parts as their wholesale value wasn't worth the liability exposure.
Late to the party, but anyway
A 1260 HP engine at 12150 ft is perhaps not that big amount of power, but it still means a 30+% increase over the Ha-25 installed on the Ki-43. Single speed S/C on a fighter in 1941-42 is not a bugaboo.
The Ha 109 was delivered in 22 examples in 1941, 645 were delivered in 1942 (double digits production from April, triple digits from October). Note that altitude power was better than on the BMW 801C, with 2/3rds of the weight, a bit smaller size, and a far better reliability; yes, 801 has the better exhausts, but also the worse intakes.
It is far better to be stuck with a Ha 41, than with the Ha 25. But, for better or for worse, Japanese were betting on the wrong horse (not just here).
Of course, the Kasei is in series production at the competition...
Shortround6
Major General
Late to the party, but anyway
A 1260 HP engine at 12150 ft is perhaps not that big amount of power, but it still means a 30+% increase over the Ha-25 installed on the Ki-43. Single speed S/C on a fighter in 1941-42 is not a bugaboo.
Well, the start of this part of the thread was
"prioritized protection, firepower and speed over agility and endurance".
Yes 1250hp at 12,150ft is not bad in 1941-42 compared to the 1150hp at 11,500ft (or close) from the P-40E but the P-40E didn't work out all that well without a little help.
Like over-boosting and other allied aircraft to share the sky with.
Fortunately the Ha 109 showing up in numbers in 1942. Unfortunately the Japanese did not make very good use of it, still betting on the agility and light armament.
The Homare showed up too late, if the Japanese wanted to prioritize protection, firepower and speed they needed to do it before late 1943 in trickles.
For radial engines that means the Nakajima Ha 109, the Mitsubishi Kinsei and Kasei and the Kinsei is a bit suspect as to timing. You really need the 60 series engines.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
How to improve the Spitfire is covered in a document at the IWM Notes on Suggested Improvements to the Spitfire, September 1940
Page 3 is below and some of these like 1 to 3 and 8, 9 & 12, are so blindingly obvious that one has to ask why a pilot had to tell the AM that these were needed. Maybe because the AM decision makers were mentally still in Sopwith Camel land where they never fought at altitudes where oxygen was needed and they didnt have cockpit heat so why should these young bucks have it.
Page 3 is below and some of these like 1 to 3 and 8, 9 & 12, are so blindingly obvious that one has to ask why a pilot had to tell the AM that these were needed. Maybe because the AM decision makers were mentally still in Sopwith Camel land where they never fought at altitudes where oxygen was needed and they didnt have cockpit heat so why should these young bucks have it.
Admiral Beez
Major
Three twin engined ground attack aircraft I'd put forward in need of improving….
Breda Ba.88 Lince
Bréguet 693
Henschel Hs 129
Breda Ba.88 Lince
Bréguet 693
Henschel Hs 129
Shortround6
Major General
And strangely enough the last two used the same engines.
Better engines may have saved (or at least made it so it didn't suck as much) the Ba.88
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
It was improved - by making it a target decoy.
Potential
Hard to improve an aircraft that was designed to be shot at
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Considering that the Hs129 started out with Argus 410 engines, the G-R 14 series was a great improvement.
The problem with upgrading engines, is they weigh more. The G-R Mars weighed just under 1,000 pounds, the closest alternative would be perhaps the BMW132, which weighed about 1,150 pounds - but to what advantage?
The Germans kept loading bigger weapons on the 129, up to the BK7.5, which was far too heavy for the airframe.
The problem with upgrading engines, is they weigh more. The G-R Mars weighed just under 1,000 pounds, the closest alternative would be perhaps the BMW132, which weighed about 1,150 pounds - but to what advantage?
The Germans kept loading bigger weapons on the 129, up to the BK7.5, which was far too heavy for the airframe.
I used to think the HS 129 wasn't much chop but I've since changed my mind as it was yet another victim of the
STBR syndrome that was a real problem throughout the war for the Wermacht as a whole.
I call it STBR for Soon To Be Replaced syndrome. There were supposed to be new planes, subs, tanks and so forth always coming
but it was always a case of too little too late or too many design / mechanical faults and delays in the new stuff.
The 129 was supposed to be replaced by the ground attack version of the FW 190 but with the other requirements for that aircraft
the numbers were never enough.
Kursk proved to be a lesson in this as the 129 did well at the start but the overall lack of ground attack planes meant rear areas were
virtually untouched. As soon as the Soviets realised this large amounts of anti aircraft guns were moved forward and caused real
problems for the Luftwaffe ground attack planes.
The 129 became more vulnerable as time went on not due to it being a bad aircraft but due mainly to STBR.
STBR syndrome that was a real problem throughout the war for the Wermacht as a whole.
I call it STBR for Soon To Be Replaced syndrome. There were supposed to be new planes, subs, tanks and so forth always coming
but it was always a case of too little too late or too many design / mechanical faults and delays in the new stuff.
The 129 was supposed to be replaced by the ground attack version of the FW 190 but with the other requirements for that aircraft
the numbers were never enough.
Kursk proved to be a lesson in this as the 129 did well at the start but the overall lack of ground attack planes meant rear areas were
virtually untouched. As soon as the Soviets realised this large amounts of anti aircraft guns were moved forward and caused real
problems for the Luftwaffe ground attack planes.
The 129 became more vulnerable as time went on not due to it being a bad aircraft but due mainly to STBR.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Hs129 was not "supposed to be replaced" by the Fw190, the Hs129 was one of the first, purpose-built ground attack aircraft made.
The Fw190 was intended to be a fighter, not a ground attack platform - apples and oranges.
The main issue of the Hs129 was not it's ability to subdue AFVs, it was the inability of the Luftwaffe to provide air superiority within it's operation radius.
The Fw190 was intended to be a fighter, not a ground attack platform - apples and oranges.
The main issue of the Hs129 was not it's ability to subdue AFVs, it was the inability of the Luftwaffe to provide air superiority within it's operation radius.
I was thinking of th eFW 190 F and G series which were specific modifications for ground attack and highlight the problems
the Luftwaffe had in the war with keeping up when so many roles were required.
Again the 129 suffered from a lack of further development.
the Luftwaffe had in the war with keeping up when so many roles were required.
Again the 129 suffered from a lack of further development.
Admiral Beez
Major
Isn't that a claim all three could make?
buffnut453
Captain
Hey look...I've been able to drastically improve the Breda Ba.88. It actually wasn't that difficult in the end:
It's my coat and I'll wear it if I want to...wear it if I want to... etc.
It's my coat and I'll wear it if I want to...wear it if I want to... etc.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Ba.88 started life as a "heavy fighter bomber".
Breuget's 690 series started out as a twin engine fighter design.
The Hs129 was a submission to the RLM's request for a dedicated ground attack platform and it was a clean-sheet design.
Even Focke-Wulf took an existing type (Fw189) and modified it as a submission to the RLM's request: Fw189 V6 (Fw189C).
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