drgondog
Major
A couple of points - with the decision going to Greg.
1.) The LE Slats deploy when the adverse pressure gradient tickles the stall aft of the slats. At this AoA the inboard wing is already in Stall or impending stall condition
2.) A high AoA is required to initiate the slats but in a turn the wings are in asymmetric loading with the high wing leading the action (aileron down, effective chord to V freestream at greater effective angle of AoA). This is THE source for all 'Snatching" comments, particularly from Rall, leading to temporary yaw if not controlled.
3.) The 109 W/L was inferior to the Spit and superior to the Mustang and FW 190 and Tempest - but less than a couple of percent. Wing Loading and level flight CL are the major considerations in comparisons - but the level flight C/L is NEVER attained in a turn. In the example of a 109 with Slats deployed, it has already reached local stall inboard and the CL for the airframe is neither predictable nor easily reproduced - hence "It ain't part of the Flight Test Plan"
4.) The level flight drag of the 109G was 10% higher than a Spit and nearly 65% greater than the Mustang.
5.) The drag due to AoA was also far higher that either the Mustang or the Spit, and the Spit was the best of the three.
6.) any comparison discussions have to be considered in the context of altitude, boost conditions framing the Thrust parameters, airspeed, Power Available vs Power Required (which has rapidly diminishing 'Delta' in any turn - but worse for the 109 that the other two). Major complications in performance model arise when developing and factoring the Form Drag due to AoA (large), the Powerplant/prop efficiency in the full range of speeds encountered in curved/circular flight path, the stall characteristics in asymmetric flight, the trim drag of the rudder deflections and aileron deflections. These are entirely left out of the discussion in Aero courses due to a.) lack of data, and b.) non-linear nature of each factor.
James W. One of the quotes (in the LW interrogation section-1945 "Spitfire vs 109" link) from one of the Interrogations focused on the general high performance of the Mustang vs the 109, in which the interviewee stated that only the best and most experienced pilots should engage in turn combat with the Mustang - and never with the Spitfire.
7.) all the VVS data often quoted in these discussions are below 2K meters and Most if not all the ones I have seen presented in this forum are pre 1943, with some lapping into early 1944.
1.) The LE Slats deploy when the adverse pressure gradient tickles the stall aft of the slats. At this AoA the inboard wing is already in Stall or impending stall condition
2.) A high AoA is required to initiate the slats but in a turn the wings are in asymmetric loading with the high wing leading the action (aileron down, effective chord to V freestream at greater effective angle of AoA). This is THE source for all 'Snatching" comments, particularly from Rall, leading to temporary yaw if not controlled.
3.) The 109 W/L was inferior to the Spit and superior to the Mustang and FW 190 and Tempest - but less than a couple of percent. Wing Loading and level flight CL are the major considerations in comparisons - but the level flight C/L is NEVER attained in a turn. In the example of a 109 with Slats deployed, it has already reached local stall inboard and the CL for the airframe is neither predictable nor easily reproduced - hence "It ain't part of the Flight Test Plan"
4.) The level flight drag of the 109G was 10% higher than a Spit and nearly 65% greater than the Mustang.
5.) The drag due to AoA was also far higher that either the Mustang or the Spit, and the Spit was the best of the three.
6.) any comparison discussions have to be considered in the context of altitude, boost conditions framing the Thrust parameters, airspeed, Power Available vs Power Required (which has rapidly diminishing 'Delta' in any turn - but worse for the 109 that the other two). Major complications in performance model arise when developing and factoring the Form Drag due to AoA (large), the Powerplant/prop efficiency in the full range of speeds encountered in curved/circular flight path, the stall characteristics in asymmetric flight, the trim drag of the rudder deflections and aileron deflections. These are entirely left out of the discussion in Aero courses due to a.) lack of data, and b.) non-linear nature of each factor.
James W. One of the quotes (in the LW interrogation section-1945 "Spitfire vs 109" link) from one of the Interrogations focused on the general high performance of the Mustang vs the 109, in which the interviewee stated that only the best and most experienced pilots should engage in turn combat with the Mustang - and never with the Spitfire.
7.) all the VVS data often quoted in these discussions are below 2K meters and Most if not all the ones I have seen presented in this forum are pre 1943, with some lapping into early 1944.