Instances of pilots omitting tracer ammunition?

[Trav02]

Hey guys, looking to pick the collective knowledge here again...

What instances do you know of of pilots taking the tracer rounds out of their beltings?
Pros and cons, the common reason seems to be, "so he doesn't know you're there till you hit him."

Nightfighters aside, a couple I've heard of:

-"Buzz" Beurling- (BTW, I've heard a couple times of markings he put on the windscreen as aiming aids, anyone know what they consisted of?)
-Some P-38 groups in the SWPA

No sources for these I'm afraid, sorry...

Anyone heard of this being done in WW1? Or easy enough if they were using infantry MG belts?

Thanks,

 

[fubar57]

Bombers did.

View: https://youtu.be/5ot_d0aG844?si=XkZsoD1m1iYY4mnY​

 

[Trav02]

Huh. Opposite of what I would have expected, if for no other reason than intimidation purposes.
TY sir!

 

[Shortround6]

It tended to vary from air force to air force and it also varied according to the year.

A lot of times it was not up to the individual pilot but rather orders from higher up.
For major changes in ammo loadout you need corresponding changes in ammo supply all the way back to the factories.

Somethings they did find out.
Tracers are better than AP for starting fires but that isn't saying much. Tracers were much worse at starting fires than incendiary ammo.
Using tracers in last few seconds of the ammo supply served to indicate to the pilot that he was about to run out of ammo. Other people will claim that also indicated to enemy pilots that the firing aircraft was about to run out and made the firing aircraft a better target. This assumes that there are other aircraft in firing positions (or close) when they see the tracers, and they don't have somebody already shooting at them
Tracers actually do less at long range than they do at short range. With their different weight and velocity they don't fly quite the same path as "normal" bullets do. using very roughly around 400yds/meters here as the difference. A lot depends on the actual gun/ammo.

As far as intimidation goes. In daylight tracers are more visible from the rear than they are from the front. The US actually developed special .50 cal tracers that were more visible from front. They also 'flew' even differently than regular tracers.

The British in their fighters often just used different ammo in the different .303 guns. Like in later Spitfires 2 guns got ALL AP and 2 guns got all Incendiary. Maybe a few tracers mixed in at the end.
Incendiaries also tended to flash when they hit gave confirmation of hits, but no indication of where the misses went.

If the tracers take 0.5 seconds to reach the target area, so they tell you where you should have been aiming 0.5 seconds ago, not where you need to aim to hit the target 0.5 seconds from now.
A target 300mph airplane is going to move 220ft in 0.5 seconds and a firing 300mph airplane is also going to move 220ft in the same 0.5 second.

 

[MIflyer]

I have read of pilots having their guns equipped with a high percentage of tracer at the point when they were about to run out of ammo.

I think the introduction of Armor Piercing Incendiary ammo reduced the need for tracer rounds, since it provided a superior substitute to tracer for ignition purposes and the flashes visible on enemy aircraft when the rounds hit were a better indication of being on target.

 

[Trav02]

Summarises what's been said, but a bit of new info, too..

-Fighter Combat-Robert Shaw

 

[Greyman]

For air combat British fighters for the most part didn't use tracers. This was mainly to avoid pilots not using their sights properly and 'hose-piping' the target with tracer.

Some were used in the manner mentioned above -- to indicate a belt was nearly exhausted (no ammo counters in British aircraft).

They were often used in ground / surface attack as
a) the ranges involved could make observing impacts on the ground difficult or
b) rounds hitting the water from ten other aircraft obscured your own shots

Early British incendiary rounds (the 1939-40 type) burned as they flew and looked somewhat like tracers but their use for aiming purposes was strongly warned against.

Free guns in turrets, etc. used tracers for the type of aiming system the British used.

Of course ... despite regulations a determined pilot / gunner had the last word what went into his machine.

 

[PAT303]

For air combat British fighters for the most part didn't use tracers.

Every Spitfire and Hurricane that fought in the BoB used tracer ammunition.

 

[PAT303]

As far as intimidation goes. In daylight tracers are more visible from the rear than they are from the front.

Buckingham tracers for the .303 used white phosphorous that was ejected from the side of the bullet via a pin hole that allowed easy visibility in daylight

 

[SaparotRob]

I've read that HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse did not have tracer ammo when they were lost. This led to conjecture that tracers might have broken up the torpedo attacks.

 

[MikeMeech]

Every Spitfire and Hurricane that fought in the BoB used tracer ammunition.

Hi
Dowding's BoB Despatch has the following on ammo used:

Mike

 

[MIflyer]

By the way, what color tracers were used in WWII? Did everyone use the same color? I think we now have red and green tracers and that varies with the using country.

 

[pbehn]

There is an often shown piece of gun cam footage of an RAF fighter in the BoB opening fire on a formation of German bombers. You can see the trajectory of the bullets from the smoke trail.

 

[Greyman]

Every Spitfire and Hurricane that fought in the BoB used tracer ammunition.

The terminology is what will trip people up here. The rounds you're referring to are what I mentioned above; Early British incendiary rounds (the 1939-40 type) burned as they flew and looked somewhat like tracers but their use for aiming purposes was strongly warned against.'

Strictly speaking these are incendiary rounds -- and as Dowding (via MikeMeech) described 'gave a distinct smoke-tracer effect'. Dowding somewhat muddies the waters here, along with many anecdotes from the period.

These rounds ... officially Cartridge, Incendiary, .303-inch B. Mark IV ... aren't tracer rounds but you can read them described as 'smoke tracers', 'incendiary tracers', or just 'tracers' by those involved.

This round is distinct from actual tracers, which use a firework composition burning out of the base of the bullet. The smoke effect from the Mk.IV Incendiary was (for the most part) an undesirable side effect and once the type was replaced in late 1940 / early 1941 by the Mk.VI 'de Wilde' Incendiary type British fighter bursts were 'invisible'.

 

[Greyman]

By the way, what color tracers were used in WWII? Did everyone use the same color? I think we now have red and green tracers and that varies with the using country.

British and US tracers were almost always red.

German tracers could be green, pale green, yellow, white, red, or orange. Several types also changed from one colour to another mid-flight. It all depended on what particular round and for what particular job we're talking about.

My info on French tracers is pretty sketchy. I've seen strong indications of white tracers for rifle calibre, red for certain anti-tank rounds, and green changing to red for Hispano ammunition.

I've got info for Italian and Japanese rounds somewhere too, if you're curious about anything in particular. I'm very ignorant on Soviet ammunition.

 

[PAT303]

The terminology is what will trip people up here. The rounds you're referring to are what I mentioned above; Early British incendiary rounds (the 1939-40 type) burned as they flew and looked somewhat like tracers but their use for aiming purposes was strongly warned against.'

Strictly speaking these are incendiary rounds -- and as Dowding (via MikeMeech) described 'gave a distinct smoke-tracer effect'. Dowding somewhat muddies the waters here, along with many anecdotes from the period.

These rounds ... officially Cartridge, Incendiary, .303-inch B. Mark IV ... aren't tracer rounds but you can read them described as 'smoke tracers', 'incendiary tracers', or just 'tracers' by those involved.

This round is distinct from actual tracers, which use a firework composition burning out of the base of the bullet. The smoke effect from the Mk.IV Incendiary was (for the most part) an undesirable side effect and once the type was replaced in late 1940 / early 1941 by the Mk.VI 'de Wilde' Incendiary type British fighter bursts were 'invisible'.

Regardless of what you want to call them they were used as spotter or tracer rounds allowing the pilot gunner whoever a degree of visual reference as to where his rounds are going, it wasn't until the improvement in sighting equipment such as the gyro stabilised gunsight that tracers fell out of favour, up to then tracers were better than having no reference point at all.

 

[Greyman]

Regardless of what you want to call them they were used as spotter or tracer rounds allowing the pilot gunner whoever a degree of visual reference as to where his rounds are going, it wasn't until the improvement in sighting equipment such as the gyro stabilised gunsight that tracers fell out of favour, up to then tracers were better than having no reference point at all.

I'm sure the smoke trail type incendiary rounds were used by pilots (particularly inexperienced ones) for aiming, but the policy of the RAF was that aiming was done with the gunsight. Right from the horse's (Gunnery Sub Committee) mouth: Tracer ammunition is misleading when used in fixed guns, particularly at longer ranges, and is therefore not required for fixed gun fighters by day.

The phosphorous incendiaries would be even worse in this respect.

Again, this is shown by the fact that once the 'smoke tracer' Incendiary Mk.IV rounds were replaced in late 1940, no variation of tracer round was brought in or developed to replace it. Not in fixed-gun fighters, anyway.

 

[MIflyer]

I have gotten the strong impression that the RAF's "Standard Fighter Attacks" against bombers were based on naval warfare. They were designed to put the maximum number of guns on the enemy force, sort of "firing a broadside." The Luftwaffe bomber crews were very impressed by the number of bullets the RAF eight gun fighters could throw at them, but in reality air warfare proceeded to fewer numbers of deadlier guns for air to air engagements as well as better accuracy, ultimately resorting to rocks and missiles. And the standard fighter attacks were abandoned as well. One would presume those moves were based on combat experience.

 

[Venomstick121]

Couldn't you tell if they were firing because of the muzzle flash?

 

[MIflyer]

Couldn't you tell if they were firing because of the muzzle flash?

Good point! That always shows up in the comic books, and most of the time in the box art.