Pilots aiming at cockpits?

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S

spicmart

Staff Sergeant
916
196
May 11, 2008
Is it known if any and which fighters aces preferred to aim at a target's cockpit or tried to avoid it when possible?
 
Wasn't it in Robert Johnson's book that he specifically targeted the cockpit of a 109 after that pilot had gunned a man in his chute? Time may have blended accounts in books together.
 
special ed said:
Wasn't it in Robert Johnson's book that he specifically targeted the cockpit of a 109 after that pilot had gunned a man in his chute? Time may have blended accounts in books together.
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I vividly remember a usaaf pilot that was in a battle. Some b-17 were shot down and he noticed one me-109 going after the chutes. Putting mg rounds in them. And in the poor bastards hanging on them.
Now if have seen a lot. See my postings here and multiply by a digit of much.
In a take of what must been 5 min i saw utter disgust and a rage so bad it turned evil. And that eons after the fact.
He broke off going after this me-109 and shot it down in vey close range. He was still very happy he got that one. Indeed he was fired up again talking about it. He didnt leave it alone untill he was sure no chute and a fireball on the ground.
 
Snautzer01 said:
I vividly remember a usaaf pilot that was in a battle. Some b-17 were shot down and he noticed one me-109 going after the chutes. Putting mg rounds in them. And in the poor bastards hanging on them.
Now if have seen a lot. See my postings here and multiply by a digit of much.
In a take of what must been 5 min i saw utter disgust and a rage so bad it turned evil. And that eons after the fact.
He broke off going after this me-109 and shot it down in vey close range. He was still very happy he got that one. Indeed he was fired up again talking about it. He didnt leave it alone untill he was sure no chute and a fireball on the ground.
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Richard Peterson it was. Thanks wheelsup_cavu wheelsup_cavu
 
spicmart said:
Is it known if any and which fighters aces preferred to aim at a target's cockpit or tried to avoid it when possible?
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It is something that only explains a pilots mind set, whether he actually wants to kill an opponent or just shoot him down Most bullets and shells fired didnt hit anything. With a battery of wing mounted guns firing a deflection shot it is impossible to deliberately miss the pilot and hit the plane.
 
pbehn said:
It is something that only explains a pilots mind set, whether he actually wants to kill an opponent or just shoot him down Most bullets and shells fired didnt hit anything. With a battery of wing mounted guns firing a deflection shot it is impossible to deliberately miss the pilot and hit the plane.
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Marseille got in close, popped a few, targeting the engine. I think i read ,he got a couple, still having 20mm shells left.
Perhaps there is a difference in 6x50 cal. Spray evil gun and 20 mm boom i gotcha gun.
That said it all about opertunity, defence. Later war with many pesky p-51 p-47 spitties in the air i do not think there was a window to get just that shot German wise.
The other side were many men just eager to get a shot in. Well trained pilots mind you. Unloading anything but the kitchen sink to get one. Get that one of your tail and the next guy will try. To fuck you up badly.
Thats what overwhelming air power does, and did.
A lion against 20 jackals is tomorrows turd in the grass. And there were very few lions left.
 
Maybe a lot difference between shooting at a plane and man in parachute.

Cockpit in a fighter is pretty much center of mass of the airplane, you have to deliberately aim off center to avoid the cockpit. If you aim center mass and are little bit off you may still hit something (engine, tail or wings). If you aim off center (pick one of the four points several meters away from the cockpit) if you miss the aim by several meters point you pretty much miss the air plane with 3 directions or you hit the cockpit area.

If the pilot is gets out he gets out. Now if he is over his home country maybe he lives to fight another day. If he is over enemy territory is probably going to be a prisoner.

Against bombers things may change. Even on a twin the engine and fuel tanks on one side may be a bigger target than the cockpit. But center fuselage/wing root gives the most room for error and still hit the plane.
 
The vast majority of pilots ,of all sides, had trouble to hit their target at all. Choosing where to hit was the privilege of very few charismatic fighter pilots
But we can say the following. In early&mid war periods the percentage of dead German pilots out of the total that were shot down was rather low. The majority survived either as wia, pow or just landed safely in friendly territory
During the later sages of the war, on the western front, 75% of the shot down German fighter pilots did not survive .
Of course a important factor was the farore powerful armament that all fighter had later in the war. Also a factor was the poor training .
But it is clear that, especially the Americans , wanted the pilots netrualized. Its clear that they kept shooting at German fighters long after it was clear that it was going down. Even as the pilot was trying to bail out
Even after in their parachutes they were not safe. It was a standard practice for German pilots ,later in the war, to open their parachutes as late as possible to avoid the American escort fighters. Many survived the jump only to be strafed on the ground. It takes some time to free yourself from the parachute
And we all know that there was as an official policy to execute the jet pilots.
A few German fighter pilots were even captured and executed by American ground forces
On the German side, I only know sporadic cases of parachute shooting. Eg a pilot in north Africa, a couple on the eastern front etc
Both RAF and LW were attacking the rescue boats on the channel front


.
 
dedalos said:
The vast majority of pilots ,of all sides, had trouble to hit their target at all. Choosing where to hit was the privilege of very few charismatic fighter pilots
But we can say the following. In early&mid war periods the percentage of dead German pilots out of the total that were shot down was rather low. The majority survived either as wia, pow or just landed safely in friendly territory
During the later sages of the war, on the western front, 75% of the shot down German fighter pilots did not survive .
Of course a important factor was the farore powerful armament that all fighter had later in the war. Also a factor was the poor training .
But it is clear that, especially the Americans , wanted the pilots netrualized. Its clear that they kept shooting at German fighters long after it was clear that it was going down. Even as the pilot was trying to bail out
Even after in their parachutes they were not safe. It was a standard practice for German pilots ,later in the war, to open their parachutes as late as possible to avoid the American escort fighters. Many survived the jump only to be strafed on the ground. It takes some time to free yourself from the parachute
And we all know that there was as an official policy to execute the jet pilots.
A few German fighter pilots were even captured and executed by American ground forces
On the German side, I only know sporadic cases of parachute shooting. Eg a pilot in north Africa, a couple on the eastern front etc
Both RAF and LW were attacking the rescue boats on the channel front


.
Click to expand...
How is it clear? I think you just made that up, prove that you didnt. BTW many RAF bomber pilots were executed by both civilians and military after surrender.
 
dedalos said:
The vast majority of pilots ,of all sides, had trouble to hit their target at all. Choosing where to hit was the privilege of very few charismatic fighter pilots
But we can say the following. In early&mid war periods the percentage of dead German pilots out of the total that were shot down was rather low. The majority survived either as wia, pow or just landed safely in friendly territory
During the later sages of the war, on the western front, 75% of the shot down German fighter pilots did not survive .
Of course a important factor was the farore powerful armament that all fighter had later in the war. Also a factor was the poor training .
But it is clear that, especially the Americans , wanted the pilots netrualized. Its clear that they kept shooting at German fighters long after it was clear that it was going down. Even as the pilot was trying to bail out
Even after in their parachutes they were not safe. It was a standard practice for German pilots ,later in the war, to open their parachutes as late as possible to avoid the American escort fighters. Many survived the jump only to be strafed on the ground. It takes some time to free yourself from the parachute
And we all know that there was as an official policy to execute the jet pilots.
A few German fighter pilots were even captured and executed by American ground forces
On the German side, I only know sporadic cases of parachute shooting. Eg a pilot in north Africa, a couple on the eastern front etc
Both RAF and LW were attacking the rescue boats on the channel front


.
Click to expand...
What is you source that Americans particularly wanted to kill the pilots?

I have more than 50 years of reading on WWII aviation and, though all sides did occasionally shoot parachuting pilots, it was generally reserved for enemy pilots who had done the same first. That is, I have never heard that Americans went "headhunting" in any widespread manner. I also have never heard the Germans did it as a matter of policy. The only exception to that generally acknowledged was "unrestricted submarine warfare" against civilian ships which, though not exactly good, was not as bad as shooting pilots in parachutes. The sailors at least usually had lifeboats and/or life jackets, and had a chance if they survived the torpedo explosion. Shooting someone's parachute removes or greatly reduces the chances for survival.

Any German pilots who were executed by American ground forces were generally the ones who had just strafed the people who captured them and caused casualties or were captured in the middle of an action where taking POWs was simply not feasible. As a nation, we were raised to play fair, and execution does not fit that notion very well. Germans in general were also raised to be civilized. I'm guessing most of the executions on the German side were directed by the SS, not the average German soldier or airman. I know and have known several people who were captured by Germans in WWII and were treated reasonably well. I know couple of Germans who were captured by Americans in WWII and were treated reasonably well.

The Luftwaffe didn't exactly avoid executing American pilots. But both sides were more likely to do it much later in the war than earlier in the war. Several years of seeing war's brutality can make anyone a bit jaded. It's can be hard to think of treating people you capture well if your home has just been destroyed and your family has just been killed by the people you capture. That goes for ANY side.

Doesn't make it right or in any way justifiable, but it IS along the lines of human nature.
 
Thumpalumpacus said:
German fighter pilots certainly aimed for the cockpits of heavy bombers in their head-on passes.
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They were hoping to land critical hits anywhere possible , especially considering the closing speed
pbehn said:
How is it clear? I think you just made that up, prove that you didnt. BTW many RAF bomber pilots were executed by both civilians and military after surrender.
Click to expand...
Ι have never read bomber crews executed by official army. I do have read that individual bomber crews members were killed by German civilians
 
Cold-bloodedly, shooting the pilot in the cockpit is quite sensible: in the short term, they're difficult to replace. Shooting them after they've bailed out is like machine-gunning sailors in lifeboats, and would be immoral.

Would anyone think it's somehow wrong to shoot a tank commander with his head out or, harkening back to the age of sail, officers on the quarterdeck?
 
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