Pilots aiming at cockpits?

[tyrodtom]

How was the list of Luftwaffe pilots shot while in their parachutes compiled ?

By witnesses that saw it with their own eyes ?
Or by the presence of bullets wounds in the bodies of the pilots who had used a parachute ?

The last method proves nothing, and the first method seems pretty unlikely giving the confusion of most battles.

 

[special ed]

From my reading and viewing videos, it appears most Me 262s were hit while landing and at that low altitude they did not get out.

 

[GregP]

How was the list of Luftwaffe pilots shot while in their parachutes compiled ?

By witnesses that saw it with their own eyes ?
Or by the presence of bullets wounds in the bodies of the pilots who had used a parachute ?

The last method proves nothing, and the first method seems pretty unlikely giving the confusion of most battles.

Agree. If you look at the top of his "list," it plainly states, "if you can provide more please do so," or words to that effect. It isn't asking for valid data with corroboration, just for "more." When you do that, you usually get "more," much of which is hearsay or made up to add some spice to the discussion.

 

[pbehn]

It is a curious discussion, did anyone ever ask a gunner if he was trying to kill the tank crew or just knock out the tank? Did anyone form any opinion of infantry firing on a tank crew bailing out of a knocked out tank. German fighters using "Schrage music" weapons certainly fired at the fuel tanks on 4 engined bombers, but if that worked the plane erupted in flames leaving little chance for any of the crew.

 

[Snautzer01]

How was the list of Luftwaffe pilots shot while in their parachutes compiled ?

By witnesses that saw it with their own eyes ?
Or by the presence of bullets wounds in the bodies of the pilots who had used a parachute ?

The last method proves nothing, and the first method seems pretty unlikely giving the confusion of most battles.

Dude they came down in german controlled territory. So if you see a lump of dead meat in a chute with holes that didnt used to be there but have a certain entry wound width, you know.
Besides that there were 2 fighters nr 1 wingman. They looked out for eachother and any other german that was watching the scene like aaa guns.
There is a difference between propaganda nazi and german paperwork. The paperwork tends to be as good as they could get it.

 

[GregP]

Dude they came down in german controlled territory. So if you see a lump of dead meat in a chute with holes that didnt used to be there but have a certain entry wound width, you know.
Besides that there were 2 fighters nr 1 wingman. They looked out for eachother and any other german that was watching the scene like aaa guns.
There is a difference between propaganda nazi and german paperwork. The paperwork tends to be as good as they could get it.

I can't tell if that reply is positive or negative with regard to the assertion that the USAAF was practicing widespread "shoot 'em in the 'chute" type deeds.

Having hunted rather widely as a kid and having been in military service, I can say that the entry width of a bullet hole doesn't tell you much about range after you are more than 10 - 15 feet away. You can tell that much because there are no powder marks. But, a 30-cal (30-06 or 308) entry hole from a 200 yard shot on a deer looks pretty much like the entry hole from 50 yards. I never shot one from more than about 200 yards because there was too much chance of wounding rather than a clean kill and I didn't want to do that to a deer. Also, in Tennessee, there simply weren't many beyond-200-yard shots where you knew what was behind the deer. Woods are like that. Most deer shots were 50 to 100 yards in wooded territory. In all my deer hunting, I only got three. The rest of the time, someone else got it or we came home empty.

I'll venture to say a 50-cal bullet hole looks substantially the same whether it comes from 200 yards or 1000+ yards. At least it did when we shot 50-cals in the military at targets. The amount of energy in a 50-cal round designed to shoot down other airplanes would likely do a number on a man in torso hit, much more so than a 30-cal round would. Or, if it was a grazing hit, it might be a through-hole shot unless it hit bone.

So, I'm not too sure what you mean above.

Cheers.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm calling BS on the whole aiming for the cockpit thing, attacking bombers head-on not withstanding. There were a few gifted aces who could pull that shot off. Major Bong quipped that he had to get up close to hit anything, though I think he might have said that out of humility.
The majority of pilots weren't Marseilles. They were blasting away at..center of mass?..whatever they thought they could hit? Gun camera footage does not show what the pilot could see. When I watch gun camera footage, I see planes jinking around trying to land hits or not get hit. The atmosphere isn't that steady a platform. A pilot might be aiming for the cockpit but that's where middle of the plane usually is. Six fifties, eight .303s or whatever load-out the LW had, will be spraying a bunch of lead in a not quite laser focused fashion.
I must be an uncommon person as aiming for cockpits, per official directive, is unknown to me. I can appreciate documentary evidence that doesn't exist to back up facts that are hearsay. I use them myself all the time.

 

[dedalos]

A well known case is Josef Zwernenmann of 1./jg11. An 126 kills ace. Shot down and killed in 8/4/1944. Oberleutnant Frinz Engau of 2/Jg11 and other pilots reported that he was shot in parachute by a P51.
Guys , I was not there . It they told lies then it s a lie.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Canadian Ace George Beurling seemed to have no reservations about killing Germans, and perhaps even relished the opportunity to do so.
Taken from "Sniper of the Skies: The Story of George Fredrick 'Screwball' Beurling"...

 

[Greg Boeser]

Polish pilots had to be ordered not to shoot pilots in their chutes during BoB.

 

[pbehn]

Polish pilots had to be ordered not to shoot pilots in their chutes during BoB.

As I posted earlier, Dowding considered that a LW pilot bailing out over the UK to have surrendered, and he wanted to interview them anyway.

 

[BiffF15]

I don't judge. Who am I to judge?
I just study history and I report without motives
Auswitz did exist, Dachau did exist, the execution of US prisoners during the Ardennes offensive did happened. These are facts
But it s also a fact that Americans, were attacking some times the German parachutists.
I provided a small list of names.
German pilots like Hofman, reschke, sinner, and many others reported that later in the war was standard practice to open the parachute at the last moment. I am sorry but it's a fact. Its reported by many
And it's the statistics. Being shot down earlier in the war had a 30-40% death rate. Later in the war, 80% of the shot down German pilots were dead. The War Diary of jg26,that covers the entire war day by day, is an excellent read. Demonstrates the changes in tactics, in aircraft, in casualty patters. And also has a comment about pachute shooting

Dedalos,

If you report without motives then produce documentation showing USAAF pilots were told to target jet pilots in their chutes. If it's your assumption then state so and don't pass it off as fact.

Also in the flying world if there is a change to operating procedures everyone gets on board. That goes for maintenance, pilots, mission planners, etc. It also goes for tactics. If some discovers or invents something that helps, word gets out and it's put in everyone's bag of tricks. See or hear about someone getting gunned in their chute, come up with a plan to minimize or negate it. Waiting to pull the rip cord is smart business, it doesn't mean that there was rampant strafing of guys in chutes. It does mean you minimize the odds it can be used against you.

Others have spoken to the increased fatality rates so I will skip that. Your motive appears to be that somehow the German pilots were victims at the hands of USAAF pilots post bailout. That they were ordered to strafe guys in their chutes. So far all you have posted is opinion with a few examples. All sides actually did it. You have so far not shown proof that the US guys did it more than others.

Biff

 

[MIflyer]

And interesting aspect of the Geneva Convention is that military aircrew flying missions in military aircraft are not required to wear uniforms because the aircraft markings are considered to be sufficient for identification. But I'll bet that any aircrew found on the ground in civilian clothes would have been shot. The Germans had so many POWs and foreign workers in their county that they were literally outnumbered and would react much more violently to suspected spies or agents than they would to just downed aircrew.

 

[tyrodtom]

Dude they came down in german controlled territory. So if you see a lump of dead meat in a chute with holes that didnt used to be there but have a certain entry wound width, you know.
Besides that there were 2 fighters nr 1 wingman. They looked out for eachother and any other german that was watching the scene like aaa guns.
There is a difference between propaganda nazi and german paperwork. The paperwork tends to be as good as they could get it.

 

[tyrodtom]

Well dude, bullets can go through the pilot, and parachute while the pilot is still in his aircraft, he parachutes out, and dies on the way down.
Plus a lot of aircraft disintegrate in midair, what shape do you think that body is in when it reaches the ground

I've seen a body that fell about 1500 feet, I don't think you could identify bullets wounds from the other traumatic injuries without a autopsy
.
A lot of those combats took place at 20,000 feet +, with the best binoculars just how much detail can anyone on the ground make from that distance?

If I had bailed out at the altitude most of these combats took place at, I'd not pop my chute right away either, If I was able to think.
Too high to breath very well with no oxygen, and you're up there with the flak, and a lot of aircraft, complete and in parts.
And way too many bullets flying around too.

I'd try and keep my exposure to that to the minimum.

 

[PAT303]

And it's the statistics. Being shot down earlier in the war had a 30-40% death rate. Later in the war, 80% of the shot down German pilots were dead. The War Diary of jg26,that covers the entire war day by day, is an excellent read.

The British were using 20mm Hispano's as their primary aircraft weapon after 1942 with a standard load out of SAPI API and HEI ammunition with gyro gunsights across the board improving hit ratio's, any fighter taking a burst into or around the cockpit is going to cause fatal injuries to the pilot, you would have also read in the same book that the pilots demanded cockpit armor after the battle of France because of the grievous injuries the .303's were inflicting.

 

[PAT303]

I'm calling BS on the whole aiming for the cockpit thing, attacking bombers head-on not withstanding. There were a few gifted aces who could pull that shot off. Major Bong quipped that he had to get up close to hit anything, though I think he might have said that out of humility.
The majority of pilots weren't Marseilles. They were blasting away at..center of mass?..whatever they thought they could hit? Gun camera footage does not show what the pilot could see. When I watch gun camera footage, I see planes jinking around trying to land hits or not get hit. The atmosphere isn't that steady a platform. A pilot might be aiming for the cockpit but that's where middle of the plane usually is. Six fifties, eight .303s or whatever load-out the LW had, will be spraying a bunch of lead in a not quite laser focused fashion.
I must be an uncommon person as aiming for cockpits, per official directive, is unknown to me. I can appreciate documentary evidence that doesn't exist to back up facts that are hearsay. I use them myself all the time.

Pilots saw a black object in front of them and let loose, watch gun camera footage on U tube, how many of them are still holding the trigger when it's clear they are missing, they still shoot because the target is visible through the windscreen.

 

[swampyankee]

In a complex, multi-aircraft combat involving a large bomber formation targeting aircrew and pilots after they've bailed out would be a time-wasting distraction: for the escorts, it means they're not engaging or deterring other aircraft attacking the formation and for the aircraft attacking the formation, they're not engaging the bombers.

While aiming at cockpits may make tactical sense, in large melee, at least, targeting people in parachutes would seem to be a waste of time. Like a sailor in the water after their ship was sunk, a pilot in a parachute isn't an immediate threat. Of course, sailors were machine-gunned in the water, pilots were shot in parachutes, surrendered ground troops were murdered, and non-combatants, like medical personnel, and hospitals were targeted.

 

[CHen10]

Canadian Ace George Beurling seemed to have no reservations about killing Germans, and perhaps even relished the opportunity to do so.
Taken from "Sniper of the Skies: The Story of George Fredrick 'Screwball' Beurling"...

View attachment 780875

God, George Beurling truly was a disgusting psychopath. I knew that he enjoyed killing people but just reading what he said here makes me infuriated. Thank God he died young, he deserved it. To me he is honestly no different from people like Jeffrey Dahmer.

Compare this to Helmut Lipfert when on 4 January 1945 he shot at a La-5. The La-5 stopped evading and Lipfert saw through the cockpit of the La-5 that he killed the pilot. He was so shocked and upset that he refused to fight for a bit.

Gerhard Barkhorn once explained to Hartmann why you shouldn't kill enemy pilots:

"Bubi, you must remember that one day that Russian pilot was the baby son of a beautiful Russian girl. He has his right to life and love the same as we do."

 

[CHen10]

Parachute attacks:

On 7 August 1944, 25.5 kill Hungarian ace Hadnagy Molnár László bailed out of his damaged Bf-109G-6 V8+48 and while in his parachute he was shot dead by P-51Ds. On the same day, Zászlós Nyemecz János was also shot in his parachute by P-51Ds. As a side note, Hadnagy Málik József shot down a P-51D this day.

I talked about 8 August 1945 between 343 Kokutai N1K2s and USAAF P-47Ns and B-29s on a separate thread on here but here is an example of attacking parachutists from that day:

"Kutami fought four Thunderbolts and was hit in the engine.
He bailed out, but was shot dead whilst using his parachute."

Another example from 343 Kokutai this time on 5 July 1945:

"With so many American fighters in the air and fearful of being shot while baling out, Sato delayed parachuting until his engine caught fire and spewed flaming oil in the
cockpit. The Japanese jumped from his burning aircraft with burns to his face. During his free fall, Sato fainted but was jerked back into consciousness when his parachute blossomed. While floating downwards, Sato could see his airfield being bombed and
strafed. Now the Mustang pilots turned their attention to the helpless figure dangling in
his parachute. At first, four P-51s, then seven or eight more, came around and shot at him. Luckily, their aim was poor and the frightened pilot was unhurt. As soon as he touched water, he engaged the quick-release mechanism on his chest, and the harness and parachute came away. He tried to swim away from the floating white silk which would
make him a target again but probably due to extreme fright and burns, Sato fainted.

When PO1/c Teruichi Sato regained consciousness, it was in the home of a fisherman. He did not know what type of boat had rescued him nor how many men fished him out of Omura Bay but the grateful pilot stayed one night. The following day, a launch was sent out to take him back to base. His silk parachute had three bullet holes in it. He would end the war as a patient at nearby Omura Naval Hospital."