Pilots aiming at cockpits?

[Clayton Magnet]

God, George Beurling truly was a disgusting psychopath. I knew that he enjoyed killing people but just reading what he said here makes me infuriated. Thank God he died young, he deserved it. To me he is honestly no different from people like Jeffrey Dahmer.

Compare this to Helmut Lipfert when on 4 January 1945 he shot at a La-5. The La-5 stopped evading and Lipfert saw through the cockpit of the La-5 that he killed the pilot. He was so shocked and upset that he refused to fight for a bit.

Gerhard Barkhorn once explained to Hartmann why you shouldn't kill enemy pilots:

"Bubi, you must remember that one day that Russian pilot was the baby son of a beautiful Russian girl. He has his right to life and love the same as we do."

The same book makes a point that Beurling was almost certainly suffering from "combat fatigue", or what we would call severe post traumatic stress disorder today. His family recoiled in horror at his comments too, because it was so out of character for him. He wasn't a disgusting psychopath, as that would imply some preexisting mental condition. The war made him that way.
Our historic enthusiasm as a species to wage them is the problem

 

[GregP]

Being disgusted and/or infuriated by what happened in a war is almost always attributable to someone who hasn't been in said war.

After you've seen enough of the worst of it, your sense of right and wrong gets somewhat numbed. The trick is to come back to normal when the war stops. Let's all hope we never have to contend with that and that, if we have, we manage to come back to normal when its over.

There is an old saying, if you are a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. That's true in other, more serious, circumstances, too, unfortunately.

Cheers.

 

[CHen10]

The same book makes a point that Beurling was almost certainly suffering from "combat fatigue", or what we would call severe post traumatic stress disorder today. His family recoiled in horror at his comments too, because it was so out of character for him. He wasn't a disgusting psychopath, as that would imply some preexisting mental condition. The war made him that way.
Our historic enthusiasm as a species to wage them is the problem

Serial Killers often have abusive backgrounds which leads to them killing people. Quite often they suffer terrible phyiscal and mental abuse. You could argue that they only kill people because they were suffering from PTSD. Of course nobody buys this excuse because those serial killers are imprisoned or executed. So if he was suffering from combat fatigue or PTSD it makes no difference to me, because nobody accepts this excuse when it comes to serial killers. Also, look at all the pilots that didn't behave like this. They were also in war and they never expressed some perverse enjoyment at watching people's limbs come off! Those pilots experienced PTSD as well, as previously mentioned Helmut Lipfert shot down an aircraft and when he killed a pilot accidentally, he was terribly shocked, immediately regretted the victory and refused to fight until he was forced to. That's the difference in class right there. One is a gentleman who only attacks the machine, while the other gains enjoyment from killing.

Since Beurling was a skilled pilot, people sort of like to sweep his personality and actions under the carpet, but they are too horrific to be ignored and just as serial killers don't get an excuse, neither does he.

 

[CHen10]

The trick is to come back to normal when the war stops. Let's all hope we never have to contend with that and that, if we have, we manage to come back to normal when its over.

Well he died only three years after the war, so he who knows, he might have continued killing after the war stopped!

 

[pbehn]

Serial Killers often have abusive backgrounds which leads to them killing people. Quite often they suffer terrible phyiscal and mental abuse. You could argue that they only kill people because they were suffering from PTSD. Of course nobody buys this excuse because those serial killers are imprisoned or executed. So if he was suffering from combat fatigue or PTSD it makes no difference to me, because nobody accepts this excuse when it comes to serial killers. Also, look at all the pilots that didn't behave like this. They were also in war and they never expressed some perverse enjoyment at watching people's limbs come off! Those pilots experienced PTSD as well, as previously mentioned Helmut Lipfert shot down an aircraft and when he killed a pilot accidentally, he was terribly shocked, immediately regretted the victory and refused to fight until he was forced to. That's the difference in class right there. One is a gentleman who only attacks the machine, while the other gains enjoyment from killing.

Since Beurling was a skilled pilot, people sort of like to sweep his personality and actions under the carpet, but they are too horrific to be ignored and just as serial killers don't get an excuse, neither does he.

Insulting pathetic rubbish. The preferred attack by all pilots was to hit the enemy unseen, from a position of advantage in height and speed out of the sun. If you believe your chosen knights of the air attacked an enemy plane with machine guns and cannon but took steps to ensure no one died then ou live in a world of make believe. Of course the German air force was high on compassion as all German military was, it was Hitlers expressed aim to win the war without any deaths wasnt it? In war in most conflicts 90% of the killing is done by 10 % of the combatants, are you calling all "aces" serial killers? Additionally of those involved in mortal combat less than 1% return to their previous life unchanged, they are true warriors, not serial killers able to divorce their actions in battle from the rest of their life. Here is a quote, Bob Doe RAF Battle of Britain ace. "I wasnt fighting for king and country, I was fighting for my mum, I didnt hate Germans I just didnt want them over here" Bob no doubt killed some Germans, he certainly didnt care if he did, that was his job. After the war he workd in a garage for years and no one was aware of what he did. Sailor Malan a South African ace and squadron leaders view was he didnt want to shoot down a German bomber, he wanted to wreck it so it limped home, crash landed at its home airfield with the whole crew breathing their last. It is/ was a war you cannot apply terms like "serial killer" to those who took part in it. After his compassionate leave for trauma in the Luftwaffe, I hope you can prove your chosen knight of the air never killed another pilot? How was he "forced" back to shooting down the enemy by the way, was someone in the cockpit with him?

 

[dedalos]

About the kill that socked lipfert, he was not shocked because of the death of the pilot .
He observed that the rear fuselage of the enemy aircraft ,all the way back to the tail, was red.He Initially thought it was some strange paint job. When he closed more he realised it was the pilot s blood. That terrified him

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Serial Killers often have abusive backgrounds which leads to them killing people. Quite often they suffer terrible phyiscal and mental abuse. You could argue that they only kill people because they were suffering from PTSD. Of course nobody buys this excuse because those serial killers are imprisoned or executed. So if he was suffering from combat fatigue or PTSD it makes no difference to me, because nobody accepts this excuse when it comes to serial killers. Also, look at all the pilots that didn't behave like this. They were also in war and they never expressed some perverse enjoyment at watching people's limbs come off! Those pilots experienced PTSD as well, as previously mentioned Helmut Lipfert shot down an aircraft and when he killed a pilot accidentally, he was terribly shocked, immediately regretted the victory and refused to fight until he was forced to. That's the difference in class right there. One is a gentleman who only attacks the machine, while the other gains enjoyment from killing.

Since Beurling was a skilled pilot, people sort of like to sweep his personality and actions under the carpet, but they are too horrific to be ignored and just as serial killers don't get an excuse, neither does he.

Paul Tibbets was interviewed in 2001, and said he "never lost a nights sleep" after vaporizing 70000 people in one night.
Was he also a "disgusting psychopath"?

 

[CHen10]

Insulting pathetic rubbish. The preferred attack by all pilots was to hit the enemy unseen, from a position of advantage in height and speed out of the sun. If you believe your chosen knights of the air attacked an enemy plane with machine guns and cannon but took steps to ensure no one died then ou live in a world of make believe. Of course the German air force was high on compassion as all German military was, it was Hitlers expressed aim to win the war without any deaths wasnt it? In war in most conflicts 90% of the killing is done by 10 % of the combatants, are you calling all "aces" serial killers? Additionally of those involved in mortal combat less than 1% return to their previous life unchanged, they are true warriors, not serial killers able to divorce their actions in battle from the rest of their life. Here is a quote, Bob Doe RAF Battle of Britain ace. "I wasnt fighting for king and country, I was fighting for my mum, I didnt hate Germans I just didnt want them over here" Bob no doubt killed some Germans, he certainly didnt care if he did, that was his job. After the war he workd in a garage for years and no one was aware of what he did. Sailor Malan a South African ace and squadron leaders view was he didnt want to shoot down a German bomber, he wanted to wreck it so it limped home, crash landed at its home airfield with the whole crew breathing their last. It is/ was a war you cannot apply terms like "serial killer" to those who took part in it. After his compassionate leave for trauma in the Luftwaffe, I hope you can prove your chosen knight of the air never killed another pilot? How was he "forced" back to shooting down the enemy by the way, was someone in the cockpit with him?

I never said Lipfert didn't kill pilots. Helmut Lipfert definitely killed pilots. Lipfert would gladly use ambush tactics if needed, and he normally wouldn't hesitate to attack an enemy aircraft. However, he never attacked pilots in the aircraft. He was credited with 203 victories and loads of his victims died. After he flew again he shot down a Romanian Bf-109 flown by Traian Darjan and Darjan was killed by the bullets. He never killed anyone intentionally, and to be honest I don't have a problem with pilots who shoot down another plane by aiming for the cockpit which is what the thread here was about. They are in a war after all and it's like soldiers in the trenches who killed each other in WW1. I certainly don't consider them serial killers or evil.

Lipfert and all other combat pilots, were fighting for their country and these ordinary people would attack a plane and try to destroy it, knowing full well it might kill someone. So no, I am not calling all aces serial killers, and to be honest I don't even understand how you'd even come to that conclusion.

I don't understand how you can't see that there is a massive difference between shooting down a plane which results in someone dying and someone who actively gets some perverted excitement at shooting people's limbs off. Beurling was disgusting. No two ways about it.

 

[pbehn]

About the kill that socked lipfert, he was not shocked because of the death of the pilot .
He observed that the rear fuselage of the enemy aircraft ,all the way back to the tail, was red.He Initially thought it was some strange paint job. When he closed more he realised it was the pilot s blood. That terrified him

Well of course he must have loaded up with rubber bullets for all future missions. Now how did the LW force him back, was he actually given compassionate leave? What do you think a "company front" attack on a US bomber formation, targeting the pilots did when they hit? Or is this knight of the air nonsense reserved for fighter pilots and no one else? The RAFs first experience in contact with the Luftwaffe was seeing them straffe and bomb French and Belgiann civilian refugees as a tactic of Blitzkrieg. Any RAF pilot who saw that or flew with somone who saw that would be perfectly entitled to take pride in blowing a member of the LW to pieces wouldnt they? How do you think the bombs dropped on civilians in London killed people, did they go "eeergh my time is up" as in the movies, or were they blown to pieces with blood all over the place? My uncle was in RAF Bomber Command invalided out with lung problems in the days before heated suits, he could never stand the smell of a roast dinner after the war, because on ground duty he had to hose out the fuselages of shot up and burned aircraft, they smelled of cooked meat, but it was his old friends and colleagues who had been cooked, people he had had a laugh and a drink with in the days before.

 

[CHen10]

Paul Tibbets was interviewed in 2001, and said he "never lost a nights sleep" after vaporizing 70000 people in one night.
Was he also a "disgusting psychopath"?

Obviously not. He was following orders to drop a bomb which he did. That was his job. If for example Tibbets described getting enjoyment and pleasure from the image of people getting vaporized then yes he would be psychopath since he's getting large amounts pleasure from the act of people dying. I don't expect him to lose sleep since he was a trained military member who was carrying out his job.

 

[CHen10]

Well of course he must have loaded up with rubber bullets for all future missions. Now how did the LW force him back, was he actually given compassionate leave? What do you think a "company front" attack on a US bomber formation, targeting the pilots did when they hit? Or is this knight of the air nonsense reserved for fighter pilots and no one else? The RAFs first experience in contact with the Luftwaffe was seeing them straffe and bomb French and Belgiann civilian refugees as a tactic of Blitzkrieg. Any RAF pilot who saw that or flew with somone who saw that would be perfectly entitled to take pride in blowing a member of the LW to pieces wouldnt they? How do you think the bombs dropped on civilians in London killed people, did they go "eeergh my time is up" as in the movies, or were they blown to pieces with blood all over the place? My uncle was in RAF Bomber Command invalided out with lung problems in the days before heated suits, he could never stand the smell of a roast dinner after the war, because on ground duty he had to hose out the fuselages of shot up and burned aircraft, they smelled of cooked meat, but it was his old friends and colleagues who had been cooked, people he had had a laugh and a drink with in the days before.

What even is this passage of text? Sorry but I don't understand what you're saying because I'm talking about something completely different about someone who gets enjoyment from the act of killing of people and enjoyment from seeing their limbs fall off and blood spray everywhere.

 

[CHen10]

Well of course he must have loaded up with rubber bullets for all future missions.

Lipfert and all other combat pilots, were fighting for their country and these ordinary people would attack a plane and try to destroy it, knowing full well it might kill someone. So no he wouldn't use rubber bullets because that wouldn't destroy aircraft.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Serial Killers often have abusive backgrounds which leads to them killing people. Quite often they suffer terrible phyiscal and mental abuse. You could argue that they only kill people because they were suffering from PTSD. Of course nobody buys this excuse because those serial killers are imprisoned or executed. So if he was suffering from combat fatigue or PTSD it makes no difference to me, because nobody accepts this excuse when it comes to serial killers. Also, look at all the pilots that didn't behave like this. They were also in war and they never expressed some perverse enjoyment at watching people's limbs come off! Those pilots experienced PTSD as well, as previously mentioned Helmut Lipfert shot down an aircraft and when he killed a pilot accidentally, he was terribly shocked, immediately regretted the victory and refused to fight until he was forced to. That's the difference in class right there. One is a gentleman who only attacks the machine, while the other gains enjoyment from killing.

Since Beurling was a skilled pilot, people sort of like to sweep his personality and actions under the carpet, but they are too horrific to be ignored and just as serial killers don't get an excuse, neither does he.

I think the main difference between a combat pilot that "may" enjoy killing, and a serial killer, is that the combat pilot was trained specifically to do so, and rewarded when they became proficient at it. These guys were trained to be killers, and some became better at it than others. It is tough to critique a guy for being good at his job.
Although I will not 100% disagree with you, Buzz Buerling was a controversial guy. The RCAF was embarrassed by his interviews during his war bonds tour back home, here is an excerpt from an interview. Bold and italics added by me. With the benefit of hindsight, it is pretty gnarly stuff.


..."For the Royal Canadian Air Force his comments about flying and that he enjoyed shooting people down in the air brought embarrassment to the organization.

He would say after the war quote:

"If I were ever asked to do that again, I'd tell them to go to hell or else ask for a commission on the bonds I sold."

In another interview he stated quote:

"It is strictly fun for me. There seemed to be more action available in Malta so I volunteered for there. I like to knock them down and the only question that ever flashes across my mind is whether they'll be blown up or fried."...

 

[pbehn]

I never said Lipfert didn't kill pilots. Helmut Lipfert definitely killed pilots. Lipfert would gladly use ambush tactics if needed, and he normally wouldn't hesitate to attack an enemy aircraft. However, he never attacked pilots in the aircraft. He was credited with 203 victories and loads of his victims died. After he flew again he shot down a Romanian Bf-109 flown by Traian Darjan and Darjan was killed by the bullets. He never killed anyone intentionally, and to be honest I don't have a problem with pilots who shoot down another plane by aiming for the cockpit which is what the thread here was about. They are in a war after all and it's like soldiers in the trenches who killed each other in WW1. I certainly don't consider them serial killers or evil.

Lipfert and all other combat pilots, were fighting for their country and these ordinary people would attack a plane and try to destroy it, knowing full well it might kill someone. So no, I am not calling all aces serial killers, and to be honest I don't even understand how you'd even come to that conclusion.

I don't understand how you can't see that there is a massive difference between shooting down a plane which results in someone dying and someone who actively gets some perverted excitement at shooting people's limbs off. Beurling was disgusting. No two ways about it.

He never killed anyone intentionally, he just shot bullets at the planes they were in, I think if you fire bullets at a plane anywhere in the world you will be on a murder charge if anyone dies. You cannot shoot down a plane without the possibility of the person in it being killed. If some foreign force was threatening to rape and execute my family and friends I like to think I would take pride in blowing every one of them to kingdom come, given the chance. Buerling was a pilot, who has gone up massively in my estimation in the last few hours. Thanks for pointing out what a great guy he was, I hope he eternally rests in peace having done his duty, I live in peace because of people like him, we need people like him.

 

[pbehn]

What even is this passage of text? Sorry but I don't understand what you're saying because I'm talking about something completely different about someone who gets enjoyment from the act of killing of people and enjoyment from seeing their limbs fall off and blood spray everywhere.

Where did he say he got enjoyment out of killing people? He was talking about the enemy wasnt he? To explain, in a war the enemy is someone who is trying to kill you because of who you are, and anyone associated with you, because of who they are. It wasnt a game of cricket with cucumber sandwiches at lunch. It was a war against a regime.

 

[CHen10]

He never killed anyone intentionally, he just shot bullets at the planes they were in, I think if you fire bullets at a plane anywhere in the world you will be on a murder charge if anyone dies. You cannot shoot down a plane without the possibility of the person in it being killed.

No problem if a person dies after shooting down a plane. This is war. The problem is getting some sick enjoyment from it.

If some foreign force was threatening to rape and execute my family and friends I like to think I would take pride in blowing every one of them to kingdom come, given the chance.

Nah there's no way?! Has my man just compared a fighter pilot to a rapist and mass murderer?

Of course you would take pleasure in killing someone who wants to kill and rape your family. But you're missing one crucial thing. A fighter pilot isn't a rapist and mass murderer, so no it makes no sense for him to get enjoyment

 

[CHen10]

Buerling was a pilot, who has gone up massively in my estimation in the last few hours. Thanks for pointing out what a great guy he was, I hope he eternally rests in peace having done his duty, I live in peace because of people like him, we need people like him.

I mean I don't know why you're telling me but that's your opinion I guess

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Where did he say he got enjoyment out of killing people? He was talking about the enemy wasnt he? To explain, in a war the enemy is someone who is trying to kill you because of who you are, and anyone associated with you, because of who they are. It wasnt a game of cricket with cucumber sandwiches at lunch. It was a war against a regime.

It should be pointed out that enemies are people too, and he clearly took pleasure in shooting them to death. Look, I don't have much of an opinion on this one way or the other. I only know that were I in the shoes of him, I'd be disturbed and not elated by knowing I'd killed another human. I know my stepfather Bob was.

He was a Marine recon troop in Vietnam. He knew for a fact he'd killed three humans there, and probably more. He'd grown up hunting in Wyoming, bagging his first deer at eleven or twelve years old. When he returned to civilian life, he went back out hunting, but just could not do it any more. He swore then and there that he'd never kill again, and would only shoot with a camera.

His eyes were filled with tears as he told me this. Yet, he did his hitch in-country to the bitter end, and rendered honorable service to our nation.

Nothing about this topic is black-and-white. War changes warriors forever.

 

[CHen10]

I think the main difference between a combat pilot that "may" enjoy killing, and a serial killer, is that the combat pilot was trained specifically to do so, and rewarded when they became proficient at it. These guys were trained to be killers, and some became better at it than others. It is tough to critique a guy for being good at his job.
Although I will not 100% disagree with you, Buzz Buerling was a controversial guy. The RCAF was embarrassed by his interviews during his war bonds tour back home, here is an excerpt from an interview. Bold and italics added by me. With the benefit of hindsight, it is pretty gnarly stuff.


..."For the Royal Canadian Air Force his comments about flying and that he enjoyed shooting people down in the air brought embarrassment to the organization.

He would say after the war quote:

"If I were ever asked to do that again, I'd tell them to go to hell or else ask for a commission on the bonds I sold."

In another interview he stated quote:

"It is strictly fun for me. There seemed to be more action available in Malta so I volunteered for there. I like to knock them down and the only question that ever flashes across my mind is whether they'll be blown up or fried."...

I did go a bit overboard I admit, but what he said just really infuriated me.

 

[CHen10]

Where did he say he got enjoyment out of killing people? He was talking about the enemy wasnt he? To explain, in a war the enemy is someone who is trying to kill you because of who you are, and anyone associated with you, because of who they are. It wasnt a game of cricket with cucumber sandwiches at lunch. It was a war against a regime.

He got enjoyment out of killing enemy pilots who were normal people.