Is Spitfire really the BEST British fighter???

[Anonymous]

Dalton -

I am not even really a fan of the Spitfire. I think it is over-rated because its performance envelope peaked around 240-270 IAS, depending on model. At higher speeds, its roll and turn performance degraded significantly.

But, I think you are trying to make too much of a case for the 109. Like the Spitfire, it lacked good high speed handling characteristics. All your argments about what a great diver it was mean nothing, since both the P-51 and the P-47 - its primary foes in 1943-45, could easily out-dive it. P-51 pilots consistantly report that they could easily out turn the 109, and also that they could out turn the 190, but not so easily.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Udet]

Guys:

The year 1942 saw the following map:

(i) Main theather of operations for the Luftwaffe: EASTERN FRONT.

(ii) Very secondary theather of operations for the Luftwaffe: ENGLAND AND CHANNEL.

(iii) Theather of operations where the RAF was located on this year: A SECONDARY ONE.

This means the bulk of the Luftwaffe and its main offensive effort was placed against the Soviet Union.

After the end of the Battle of Britain (late 1940), the RAF enjoyed virtually of an entire year (1941) to rest and to refit its fighter squadrons, since British skies and the channel were a secondary place for the Germans. It was during this period -less than a year after the end of the Battle of Britain- when the Luftwaffe switched east and chewed and swallowed the VVS.

During 1942, the Luftwaffe kept only a small fighter force in France, yet the Spitfire squadrons proved totally uncapable of dealing with the Luftwaffe. Two famous battles (Channel Dash and Dieppe) substantiate this assertion.

And not just that, losses of Spitfires were huge at the hands of both the Fw190s and Bf109s throughout 1942.

I find it strange that after achieving a victory over the Luftwaffe in the famous BoB, the RAF, after having enjoyed of one year (1941) as secondary adversary in the west, time during which the Luftwaffe did not rest that much and pulverized the massive VVS, could just not gain air superiority over a small fighter force.

Perhaps the losses of RAF fighters and pilots (which were high) during the Battle of Britain had an effect far more profound than previously acknowledged or the Spitfires which followed the MkI were inferior to both the Butcher Bird and the 109.

 

[DJ_Dalton1]

Very insightful post Udet.

The truth about WWII is that Germany was beaten by Russia's Army, Britain's Navy and America's Air Force. It really took all three to do it and its probably a good thing for the world they were able to reign in Hitler.

Britain's Air Force wasn't going to get it done.

I want to state a correction. Bartels did not receive his G-10 in June, I misread the profile.

Here is a little disinformation I ran across. Its funny they discuss the Manston 109 that I've been belaboring and how it was proof of degraded 109 handling. Theres no mention of the Pods of course. Its clearly the same plane and mentions it was wrecked before it could be compared to a Tempest. I assume you are all knowledgeable enough to know that those gondola bomber busters were seriously degraded in both speed and maneuverability and were far more vulnerable to bouncing fighters. They were not designed for dogfights:

"A Luftwaffe pilot would land his Bf 109G at RAF Manston by mistake later in the war and allow comparison of the Messerschmidt against current Allied types, showing it to have few advantages and many disadvantages relative to the Spitfire Mark IX and XIV, as well as the P-51C Mustang. The Gustav was lost in an accident before it could be tested against a Tempest Mark V.":

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1154

And here we are, mere aviation buffs far more knowledgeable with our ability to use the net than those that have written history. Our power is immense. We can divine the truth if we scrutinze and search for it.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59729#59729

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

oh this's gonna be good...........

and multi tasking, what kind of a man are you??

Yeah, I agree concentrating well on one thing is the key to life.

Ok, The lancaster sucked for a number of reasons. First off, it lacked a belly turret and when I'm playing flying sims I always zoom up and gut shoot it. Its defenseless from underneath.

Secondly, I don't think its particularly fast so its easy to get multiple passes on it before it gets to target.

I think its got a decent bomb load, but if you hit it jusssssssst right.........KABOOM the whole thing goes up in a really nice pyrotechnics display.

Lets see what else....oh yeah........they had to go night bombing with it because they were getting murdered during the day. I see an escort there in your picture but really can't make it out. It looks more like an Aircobra than a Spitfire to me. Do you know what it is?

Anyway, night bombing resulted in the Luftwaffe's response with Wilde Sau and early one morning the Germans got confused and landed at Manston instead of France I guess and the U.K. got a nice bomber hunter to test and everyone is all confused because of it.

Thats about it.

ok, yes, the lanc didn't have a "belly" turret, this was to allow for a colossal bomb bay (actually longer than the B36's!!), the use of H2S and to keep the lanc's amazing manouverability. Ok so in a flight sim you can come up underneth, and it'd be stupid of me to deny that many many lancs were shot down from underneath, but did the flight sim also show the lanc pulling off evasive manouvers?? proberly not............

and if you think that just because a particular approach is covered by a gun turret a plane can't be attacked by that approach, just look ant the B-17, in thoery every possible approach is covered by a gun, look how many got shot down...........

ok about it not being fast, what 4 enginged bomber in 1942 was?? bombers will never be as fast as fighters (well, apart from the mossie of course) and the lanc was faster than a B-17 for exapmle, and about the fact that "its easy to get multiple passes on it before it gets to target", it had several hundred miles to travel to get to berlin for example, it could get attacked at anytime on the way there or the way back............

and yes you're right, the lanc had a huge payload, but about hitting it "jusssssssst right.........KABOOM the whole thing goes up in a really nice pyrotechnics display" this is true of any bomber, and unless you attack from the underneath you aint gonna hit the bomb bay, and you're unlikely to aim for the bomb bay as if you do set the bombs off, chances are you'll get blown up as well................

and the RAF was bombing by night before the lanc came into service, due to high losses, the lanc simply carried on the old tactics, and it was safer by night, if it saves lives it can't be that bad, and the escort in my pic is and RAF mustang as CC said, and would you look at that, it's a daylight raid, as of 1944 the lanc undertook more daylight raids than most people think, and without the expected early war losses.............

and i have no idea what that last paragraph was about...........

and CC i'm impressed, you're not converted to the religion that is lancasterism are you??

 

[DJ_Dalton1]

you're not converted to the religion that is lancasterism are you??

As a matter of fact Lanny, I just received my confirmation. I am a Lancasterite.

Its one helluva badass Whamma Jamma.

...and one other thing. The Jerries really had absolutely nothing to compare.

 

[Anonymous]

Udet,

I'd answer that the RAF did poorly against the Luftwaffe' in 1942 for the same reason the Luftwaffe' did poorly against the RAF in 1940 - their planes were not suited to fighting over enemy held territory.

In general, it is much harder to fight over enemy held, or even contested territory, than it is over friendly territory. Most Luftwaffe' kills were scored either over German held territory, or within a few miles of German held territory.

Look at the number of times Luftwaffe' pilots were shot down. It is very common for those pilots who scored large numbers of kills to have been shot down at least once for every 30 or so kills they scored. Because they were over their own territory, or close to the lines, they were usually able to get back behind their lines before bailing out or ditching the plane, therefore they were very often able to fly again.

When a USAAF pilot, or an RAF pilot after the BoB, got shot down, usually it was over German held territory and they ended up either dead or as a POW. This meant that relatively green pilots replaced them. In combination with tendancy of German units to try to rack up large numbers of kills for a few "experten" in each unit, and the fact that the Germans enjoyed periods of numerical and techinical superiority on each front at the start of the war, also goes a long way toward explaining the difference in kills for German aces vs. Allied aces.

The Spitfire was not a good air superiority fighter. But, neither was the 109 or, even though it was better in this role, the 190.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[mosquitoman]

Once the RAF had the long range escort, they could bomb tactical targets with much more accuracy and with low losses

 

[Anonymous]

More accuracy than what?

Are you saying the bombsights on the Lanc were better than those on the B-17?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[mosquitoman]

More accuracy than there would be at night

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

so DJ, do you still think the lanc "sucks ass"??

 

[DJ_Dalton1]

Udet,

I'd answer that the RAF did poorly against the Luftwaffe' in 1942 for the same reason the Luftwaffe' did poorly against the RAF in 1940 - their planes were not suited to fighting over enemy held territory.

hmmm, thats gonna be hard to resolve as pertains to Russia. I guess the early success can be attributed to I-15, I-16 and Mig 3 ineffectiveness and that when the Russian Planes improved Germany was generally on the defensive fighting over German held Russian territory. I don't know. I think the B.o.B. was lost because the Hurricanes were able to evade 109's. The 109's couldn't stay and the German bombers faired poorly in their self defense. I think the Spitfires faired poorly in their offensive actions because they were an extremely overrated airplane their entire existance. (At least compared to the German fighters)

Look at the number of times Luftwaffe' pilots were shot down. It is very common for those pilots who scored large numbers of kills to have been shot down at least once for every 30 or so kills they scored.

The germans counted all their downed planes even if they were downed by debris, as Hartmann was several times. He went down once for every 40 kills. I did read about one experten who had 61 kills if I recall correctly and he went down 17 times. However, many of these lost planes weren't immediate losses. They were nursed back to friendly territory and counted lost.

When a USAAF pilot, or an RAF pilot after the BoB, got shot down, usually it was over German held territory and they ended up either dead or as a POW. This meant that relatively green pilots replaced them. In combination with tendancy of German units to try to rack up large numbers of kills for a few "experten" in each unit, and the fact that the Germans enjoyed periods of numerical and techinical superiority on each front at the start of the war, also goes a long way toward explaining the difference in kills for German aces vs. Allied aces.

The above seems another creative/searching attempt to explain away what can't be explained away. Of the Top 20 RAF scoring aces, 3 were taken prisoner:

Roland Tuck (30) - POW Jan. 28, 1942
John Braham (29)- POW Jun. 19, 1944
Douglas Bader(22) POW Aug. 9, 1941

http://www.acesofww2.com/UK/UK.htm

For America, the only Top 20 Ace taken prisoner at the Western Front was:

Gabby Gabreski (twenty eight)- POW Jul. 20, 1944

If you look down the list you'll find:

Hubert Zemke (17.75)- POW Oct. 30, 1944

http://www.acesofww2.com/USA/USA.htm

Tuck and Bader might have been able to increase their victory totals if they hadn't been shot down. However the British fought the entire war and like the Americans adopted the German Finger Four Schwarm as well, but does anyone really think these guys were going to get 100 kills or even 50?

It wasn't Allies being taken POW and German use of the Schwarm that dwarfed Allied victories in comparision with the Germans. It was something much more primary. The best team doesnt always win but sometimes the number of Wins and Losses define the debate.

 

[Anonymous]

You seem to totally disregard the fact that the Luftwaffe' had a huge advantage during the early part of the war. Most Luftwaffe experten gained most of their kills on the E. Front, against badly outclassed opponents. By the time they faced roughly equivelant technology, they were very well seasoned vetrans with hundreds of sorties behind them. The faced pilots who were comparative novices, and when things got relatively even in terms of technology, they fought over their own territory.

Looking at the Allied Aces who got shot down vs. those that didn't is kinda stupid don't you think. Had the Experten been out of action on the first plane they lost - they'd never have been Experten!

Loss because of debrie damage does not matter - for the Germans that pilot was able to get home, for the P-51 pilot over Germany (or Spitfire pilot over France), he was not.

High kill counts of the German Experten are easily explained:

1) They faced inferior opponents early in the war where most of them racked up the majority of their kills.

2) When the quality of the opposition improved, they fought mostly over German held territory or near German held territory, frequently allowing them to be shot down and return to the cockpit where an enemy would be out of the war.

3) The whole squadron was oriented towards racking up the maximum number of kills for the few experten in the unit.

4) Because they enjoyed a huge technical advantage against their foes early in the war, they were generally much more experianced than their opponenents later in the war.

5) They had no system of rotation, they flew until the war ended or they were no longer able to fly. This means that they flew far more sorties than their Allied counterparts, and a much much higher percentage of those sorties were flown as non-rookies. The most dangerous missions for any pilot are their first few combat missions.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DJ_Dalton1]

You seem to totally disregard the fact that the Luftwaffe' had a huge advantage during the early part of the war. Most Luftwaffe experten gained most of their kills on the E. Front, against badly outclassed opponents. By the time they faced roughly equivelant technology, they were very well seasoned vetrans with hundreds of sorties behind them.

What you'll also find is that the great Luftwaffe Aces came in cycles. The aces from the B.o.B. were in very rare cases still the lead aces at the end of the war. The early aces were of course Molders, Galland, Marseilles, Pflanz, Philipp. Mid War Aces arose like Nowotney and a host of others and then late war you had Hartmann and Kittel among scores of others. (Don't hold me to the war period identified. I could be off.) In each case they attained huge kill totals. If a single Experten had fought the whole war and been lucky enough to live how many kills might he have obtained? You can't explain away the war long success on the basis of early success. Many times the same pilots were not involved in different stages of the war.

If you want to say the German training was perhaps superior. I might acquiesce to that, but I think it was far more than training. The British knew how to fly after WWI also and a great deal of what aircraft became in WWII was a result of what was learned in WWI. The Germans studied this very carefully and I think it was key to their success. I think the Americans learned the lessons of WWI fairly well too, but to some extent I think the lessons of WWI were lost on the British and Japanese. The latter of which are probably excused because they didn't fight it.

The faced pilots who were comparative novices, and when things got relatively even in terms of technology, they fought over their own territory.

As pertains to the fighting over "home territory" I think we've disposed of the POW issue being a significant factor in suppressing Ace "kill totals". If you're saying that pilots fight more boldly and confidently over their own territory and that helps them increase their victory totals, I think the leading aces in the B.o.B. were German, though I am not entirely certain of this:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/balthasar.html

The Russians certainly didn't fare extremely well until very late war and obviously defending Mother Country at all costs is probably not real good for Fighter Pilot longevity. Pat Pattle is probably a good example there.

Looking at the Allied Aces who got shot down vs. those that didn't is kinda stupid don't you think.

I don't know. You're the one that raised this as an issue.

High kill counts of the German Experten are easily explained:

Thats the problem, the kill totals have to be "explained away". Its "the rationalization of why the totals are not as dominate as they appear". Its a very tenuous position to have to argue from.

1) They faced inferior opponents early in the war where most of them racked up the majority of their kills.

2) When the quality of the opposition improved, they fought mostly over German held territory or near German held territory, frequently allowing them to be shot down and return to the cockpit where an enemy would be out of the war.

3) The whole squadron was oriented towards racking up the maximum number of kills for the few experten in the unit.

4) Because they enjoyed a huge technical advantage against their foes early in the war, they were generally much more experianced than their opponenents later in the war.

5) They had no system of rotation, they flew until the war ended or they were no longer able to fly. This means that they flew far more sorties than their Allied counterparts, and a much much higher percentage of those sorties were flown as non-rookies. The most dangerous missions for any pilot are their first few combat missions.

yes these reasons are part of the argument formulated to try and explain away the dominance of a defeated nation. It has to be explained away. They couldn't have been superior or at least not as superior as all that.

=S=

Lunatic[/quote]

 

[cheddar cheese]

and CC i'm impressed, you're not converted to the religion that is lancasterism are you??

Why thankyou 8) Well you could say I have in a way...still wish it looked better thoguh.

 

[helmitsmit]

The other reason the spit wasn't a good nightfighter was when you tookoff u couldn't see over the nose! And once in the air it was so twitchy it was amost to manuourable! Dangerous! I do think they couldn't install radar either because it would ruin the aerodynamics.

 

[Maestro]

While surfing the http://perso.wanadoo.fr/frenchaces/as/m+c.html web site, I read two of the three fighter victories story Pierre H. Clostermann had. (One against a Bf-109G, the other (his second fighter victory) against a FW-190A). To prove that the Spitfire was not as bad and overrated as Dalton say, I decided to translate and tell you his second and third victory over FW-190s (in the same mission).

"Le Havre, July 27th 1943

Assigned to Earls Colne (UK), 18 American B-26 Marauder of the 323rd Bomber Group had as their fourth mission to bomb the airbase of Triqueville, near Pont-Audemer. That airfield is the home of one of the best German fighter squadron : Major Helmut-Felix Bolz's I./JG2. The Spitfire Mk. IX of the 341 and 485 squadron are assigned to high escort and take off at 17h45 under the command of Cmdr. Mouchotte, who lead the Biggin Hill Wing over occupied Europe.

The rendez-vous point is at 12,000 feet over Beachy-Head. 17 of the B-26 spot the target, most of the bombs fell in the woods North-West of the airbase. The fighters protect the return of the bombers who flies West to Trouville where they head for England.

Suddenly, the radar operator signal 14 ennemy fighters approximately 20 kilometers South of Trouville. Immediately, the French squadron move between the sun and the bombers. But the FW-190 dive on the New-Zelanders who faced them and call their French comrades for help. The 341 Squadron is 1500m lower and try to reach them when a dozen of Focke-Wulfs fell on them. Mouchotte shot at one of them without noticable result while his wingman, the Sergent-Chef Bruno fire two short bursts and see his target fell down in roll. The Captain Montet (AKA Martell) got two Germans on his tail. The Sgc Clostermann, his wingman, intervene and shoot at one of them who immediately explode. Attacked by other FW-190s, he savagely fight back. On his side, Montet shot at an other one who lost his "empennage". In a hell of a dogfight at 21,000 feet, Clostermann spot an ennemy below him. He dives on him without taking care of the rest... The German plane get bigger in his collimator. The pilot of the FW-190 saw him but it was too late for him. Clostermann close on him, shooting short bursts wich hit the back of the "fuselage", he pull-up sharply to avoid a collision. During that time, he looks at his kill flying upside-down with a black cloud of smoke getting out of the engine... The German pilot was able to bail out.

Pierre Clostermann tells the continuity : "By raising the head, I see, above me, a Spitfire - the one of Martell probably - and the famous yellow Focke-Wulf. All the stunt-flying tricks are used. It's fascinating ! Immelmann turns, rolls... but without gaining an inche on the other. Suddenly, they both turn around and attack each other head-on. That's pure madness... The Spitfire and the FW-190 were fireing of all their arms, heading on each others. The first one to break-off is doomed, because he'll expose his plane to the ennemy's guns. The breat taken, I saw at the moment where the collision semmed imminent, the Focke-Wulf shaking due to the impacts of the bullets, then fall apart. The Spitfire, wich by miracle didn't had a scratch, passes through a cloud of remains in fire wich were raining..."

The Biggin Hill Wing got 9 victories without a single lost. 5 of their victories were credited to the 341 "Alsace" Squadron and received the congratulations of the Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

Sources :

Le Grand Cirque, page 38
Le carnet de R. Mouchotte, page 231
Mission Reports Sqn. 341
Marauder Men, J.O. Moench"

You see, Dalton, the Spitfire was not that bad.

 

[DJ_Dalton1]

You see, Dalton, the Spitfire was not that bad.

No, it wasn't that bad. Pilots couldn't hear the engines of enemy planes so getting surprised was the way most of them went down and thats how the French Ace got that Focke Wulf. It was always bad to get dived upon.

The other story is a little quizzical because the Focke Wulf appears to have turned far too much with the Spitfire even though some of the maneuvers were roll oriented. In the end they were head on which indicates the Spitfire didn't get the turning advantage and that they both were gambling immensely. I think most times the Focke Wulf wins the head on, but its not a move thats gonna result in pilot longevity.

 

[Maestro]

In that case, I'll translate and post the two other fighter victories stories listed to Pierre H. Clostermann.

His 4th victory (FW-190) :

"Hazebrouk, August 27th 1943

In this beginning of evening, 224 B-17 from the 8th Bomber Command divided in 4 groups must bomb a forest at Watten, near Saint-Omer. The Allies suspected the Germans set up secrets weapons on this site (in fact, they were building a V-2 site). The first bomber formation was escorted by the 24 Spitfires from the Biggin Hill Wing (12 Mk. IX from the 341 Squadron and a equal number from the New-Zelander 485 Squadron) led by Cmdr. Mouchotte.

Arrived in advance at the rendez-vous point, the B-17s are attacked by an hundred of German fighters from the I and II/JG 2 and II and III/JG 26. The Spitfires join-in at top speed and a nice show begins. During the fight, 2 New-Zelander planes dive behind a FW-190. They are followed by an other Focke-Wulf themselves. The Sgc Clostermann try to warn them and engage the last one. He follows him at a high speed, shooting short bursts at him and hitting him many times. Hit by a last burst at less than 100 meters, the German plane roll on top and crash on the ground at an awful speed. The pilot probably was the unteroffizier Krieg from the 5./JG 26 aboard the FW-190A-4 (WNr.2379). On his side, Captain Boudier also shot down a FW-190. At the radio, Cmdr. Mouchotte say that he is alone, it'll be his last message. He'll fall near Dunkerque, shot down by Leutnant Radener, Kapitän of the 6./JG 26. An other pilot from the 6th Staffel, Feldwebel Mayer will shot down Sgc Magrot who will be taken P.O.W.

The Allied protection was efficient, because only three B-17 were shot down by the Flak while an other one was shot down by a fighter. In spite of the High Command's predictions, it was the first flight group that got beaten up. Two of the following flights didn't saw any Black Cross and for the last one, protected by the biggest part of the escort, the band of Focke-Wulf has been disperced.

Sources :

Le Grand Cirque, page 45
JG 26 War Diary, Vol. 2, page 144"

His 5th victory (Bf-109G) :

"Saint-André-de-l'Eure, June 15th 1944

Jacques Remlinger and Pierre Clostermann decided to realise a project they were thinking about since december : the straffing of the Saint-André-de-l'Eure airbase, suspected of activity.

They take off at 09h50 with 12 other Spitfires from 602 Squadron. At half-way, they break the formation with the authorisation of the Squadron Leader. Arrived above the target, they spot an ennemy plane at low altitude. Clostermann head toward him at top speed, he must be quick. The airbase saw from 4000 meters high seemed damaged, but was in fact camouflaged to make peoples beleive it was. He pull-up at three or four km away from the airbase and hug the ground to avoid the Flak. At the other side of the airbase, the form of the plane appears - that's a Messerschmitt 109. Clostermann, at 50 meters high, cross at 750 km/h a second Bf-109 that he didn't saw, fockused on the other. The German Flak fired at will, without care for the Bf-109. Clostermann fires long bursts and see him turn-over and start a roll... The Messerschmitt crashed in a field south to the main airstrip.

Sources :

Le Grand Cirque, page 122"

A Spitfire pilot can't be sooooooo lucky.

 

[Anonymous]

You see, Dalton, the Spitfire was not that bad.

No, it wasn't that bad. Pilots couldn't hear the engines of enemy planes so getting surprised was the way most of them went down and thats how the French Ace got that Focke Wulf. It was always bad to get dived upon.

The other story is a little quizzical because the Focke Wulf appears to have turned far too much with the Spitfire even though some of the maneuvers were roll oriented. In the end they were head on which indicates the Spitfire didn't get the turning advantage and that they both were gambling immensely. I think most times the Focke Wulf wins the head on, but its not a move thats gonna result in pilot longevity.

Hmmm... head to head, I like the guns with twice the range. Don't you?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

Dalton,

You miss two points.

First, my argument about comparing aces being rather stupid. What is stupid is to look at the top 30 Allied aces only. The point is that many many Allied pilots got shot down before ever having a chance to become vetrans and rack up lots of kills. Had the German high scoring aces been out of the war the first time their plane got shot/forced down, they'd never have become high-scoring aces and you'd not even consider them.

Secondly, when it comes to experiance I'm not talking about training, I'm talking about time in the "killing flields". None of the Allies had the luxory of shooting down 50+ much inferior enemy in order to learn how to fight. In the early part of the war, both in the West and in the East, the German pilots faced generally inferior enemy aircraft, and notably inferior enemy guns. They could afford to make a few mistakes which were not possible for their foes in the learning cycle.

So what are you trying to say Dalton? That Germans are just inhierantly better pilots?

=S=

Lunatic